warning: blanket ahead !


Hello.

My name is Emil Bicok and I live in Belgrade. Just for the record, I'm student of Process engineering at the Belgrade University and a long-time participant in pro-democratic actions held here. I see you have a nice discussion in here so here's my view of the not-to-obvious causes for recent bombing, from my point of view.


It's said that the main reason for attack is to stop the fights in Kosovo and to prevent a human catastrophe - refugees, killing of civilians... That would be a high and worthy cause(*), but I do not see that NATO acts in that direction. In fact, I think that military action completely misses it's declared political goals, and I'll try to explain it.

First, it's clear (as it was for long time now) that Milosevic's absolutism and chauvinism is one of the main reasons for conflicts we had with former Yugoslavian republics. Situation with Albanians from Kosovo is somewhat different, since there are very old conflicts - from much before he got to the scene. Also, it would be too much for one message - if you want we can discuss it further. Anyway, I strongly believe that Milosevic's resignation would be both very beneficial and necessary for my country's recovery, and good for the whole region. And I believe that US and EC officials also see it this way, at least that's what they say.

Second, on examples of Cuba, Iraq and Libya is obvious that economic sanctions and war campaigns do not result with real changes - all the leaders stayed in their positions (and got even stronger), regimes stayed the same and common people paid all the debts(**). Not to mention that threat (or rather "threat") remained...

Third, in this particular situation - can any kind of bombing possibly stop ground field- or (especially) city-combat? I think that peaceful Albanians are in worst situation now - on their necks they have KLA that not lets neutral men stay aside nor want to leave positions (KLA held some parts of Kosovo for almost a year) and cause, they have the Army with very thin nerves after all this and the bombs that kill them too. On top of that, there's the statement of gen. Clark who said that "... (escalation of violence) was completely predictable."(***)


So, the question is very simple - if USA and EC officials really want to
bring Balkanian crisis to conclusion why they use method that's evidently... unfruitful, if not totally wrong? Why, especially while there is an obvious and less painful method - to pull Milosevic and KLA-leaders to Hague, as they deserve? Is the bombing cheaper, simpler, more appropriate, what???


. . .


Let's take a look from the other, darker side - with Milosevic in saddle, situation in region is not likely to get better, at least not soon. On the other hand, bombing will probably destroy a great deal of Yugoslavian industry, some of the bigger factories are burned to the ground already. Obviously, it will make recovery of my country very difficult and things here will not settle for a long time. Question is: what is, really, the attitude of The West here - do they want it to happen this way or they simply can see the way to avoid it?

This answer is not simple and it's far beyond my reach. I'll just try to indicate a few controversial points.

First, West didn't tried to step on Milosevic personally - his bank accounts, which are huge, are still open, there were no serious efforts to put him to trial, political support to Yugoslavian opposition and non-governmental organisations almost disappeared and economical decreased significantly after the last autumn when it looked like Milosevic would give privatisation a green light - in here, privatisation means selling companies and factories to foreign corporations.

Then, in the times of cold war, Yugoslavia was one of the biggest weapon exporters to the Third World countries, our arms industry was greatly involved in Iraq for example (iv). Our T-84 tank is, as even western analysts agree, far better than competition for desert conditions and thus it was likely to sell very well on "the market". Do I have to say which factories were bombed first? Dirty way to eliminate competition...?

Another great benefit for the West (for english-speaking countries above all, I guess) is the exodus of younger and/or highly educated people from here - doctors, engineers, scientists... whole generations from technical faculties are leaving country. Two years ago I heard a terrible statistics - that approximately 350.000 experts were gone, and 'till now - who knows? I read an estimation that it takes about 100.000$ to "develop" a graduated student - just think about savings for countries that receive such refugees...

Then, a straight benefit for NATO is an opportunity to try out all of new weapons - B2 is now applied for the first time, and it's maybe the first downing of invisible (heh, invisible 😉 ) F-117a. It stands for USA above all, because other participants sent older stuff (Harriers, Tornados...)


. . .


Now I gave you some specific aspects of Yugoslavian situation and eventual benefits for the West (USA above all). I hope they worth thinking, even for the americans. I mean, there is a logic (of a specific kind) in imposing of one's politics to the rest of the world but let's face it, let's call it properly, hiding behind humanitarian blabbing is too pathetic...


Regards to all goodwilling participants of this discussion.

Emil Bicok
Belgrade

---

* - don't get me wrong, I'm deeply against any killing and I agree that it
have to be stopped, only can't agree with methods

** - you probably know that embargo we had related even on medicals, but
you might not know that we were cut-off from Internet 'till 1996.

*** - Noam Chomsky - "The current bombings: behind the rhetoric"
http://www.zmag.org/current_bombings.htm

iv - it's not that I agree with weapon making, I'm just trying to focus
things that can be of interest to a military mind - a kind that's in
charge here

To Emil Bicok:

What an analysis ! It was great and clear. I'm sure West & US have some good reasons to do it ( included human rights, of course !).

Sorry, no time to say more.... i will continue tomorrow.

Dear readers, If you like to know more about KOSOVO JUST CLICK

Emil,

You got it right. Tell us more when you can. I need to go to but will check on it later.

A lot of us in the U.S. don't know what to think about our involvement.

But don't forget, we're at the top of the list in terms of "ethnic cleansing." The advantage we had was doing it before mass media when we slaughtered those native to North America and forced them to live on "reservations."

Get off it, Spot. Your bumper-sticker rationalizations have no real relevance here. The Native American "cleansings" were perpetrated most egregiously by the Spainards, not the Americans. Sure, our ancestors killed a bunch of Natives and treated them pretty poorly, but plenty of innocent settlers got hacked up by tribes like the Pawnee. Cuts both ways. By the way, I should probably mention that I'm part Indian myself.

It's all beside the point. It was a hundred years ago and more. No one has been "cleansed" here in ages, at least not by the state apparatus. This is 1999, shouldn't we be expecting a little more civility and enlightenment? Furthermore, why on Earth would you want to justify Milosevic and his crackdown by comparing it to a dark point in someone else's history? If murder is allowed to beget murder, where will it end?

The Indian wars are over and done with, there is little we can do to rectify the situation at this late date (though the Federal gov't has been aggressively pursuing lawsuits to compensate tribes for stolen land, which is great)... The atrocities in Kosovo are happening NOW, and there is something we can do about it. Let Russia posture all it wants, it's but a paper tiger these days, and desperately needs the West's capital in order to even survive.

We have intervened in other areas to try to halt humanitarian problems (Somalia was a disaster, but Haiti, Bosnia, and even Cambodia seem to be doing ok... and don't think Kagame's forces in Rwanda stopped the killings without US tactical support). In a perfect world, we could just assassinate Milosevic and be done with this BS, but if that ain't gonna happen, I for one openly favor the partition of Yugoslavia and the arming of the Kosovar Albanians.

Grant/Michigan/USA
Alot of good things have been said on the internet today, I applaud all of you for your input for a very bad situation for everyone. Why is the United States involved, we're part of NATO, we ave not taken this problem up by ourselves, I'm quite tired of everyone blaming it all on us when there is 19 countries involved. It always seems that the US is always good to give money with everyones hand out, but when it comes to the murders of innocent peoples, someone has to take control. Obviously the Serbs aren't in control, otherwise they would get rid of there President. We tried to get rid of ours, but majoity rules. I believe he made a mockery out of the White House with Monica. If anything, NATO has waited way too long to be doing anything about all this genocide in Yugoslavia. We all said we would never let it happen again after the German Nazi's killed the Jews, but we sure took our time doing something about it, The Serb President also has had alot, once again alot, of time to do something about the situation. But no he didn't. Generations of Albainians have grown up and were born in Kosovo, that is THEIR HOME!!
If the US were to start Genocide we would be at each others throat. We have ever ethnic group you can name here. How can we make it work and the people of Yugoslavia cannot. I'm stumped. Well, I've said enough. I'll pass it on to someone for some good stuff for all of us to read.

The NATO propaganda caught itself in it's own lies. James Rubin, the spokesman for State department has made a loughing stock from himslef. He was fed with lies and he fed lies to the media. He accused Serbs of having a concentration camp and a mass graveyard with over 100.000 buried in the Pristinas football field. Today western jounalist visited the football field and said there is no people there and grass is untouched. He accused Serb policemen of killing five prominent Kosovo Albanian politicians. Today the whole world found out they are still alive. Of course Rubin didn't apologize to anybody nor did he say he will stop listening to the person who made up all those lies.
Rugova, of whode death Serbs were accused of, today called NATO to stop the bombings. The leader of Kosovar Albanians pleaded for bombings to stop. Nobody will listen to him of course. As we were able to hear on BBC goals are much higher than humanitarian. It was said that not only bombings didn't help they only made the matters worse. But will they stop? They can't cause NATOs honor is at stake. And since the NATOs 50th anniversary is next month this operation has to be finished with sucess.
Bomb whoever, whenever... Costs doesn't matter, financial or human, when NATOs honor is at stake, human life doesn't matter anymore. I am ashamed to be a human being.

Nick B,

You're reading an awful lot into my brief post.

I didn't say whether we should or shouldn't be doing what we're doing. And I'm not justifying what's going on in Kosovo now.

The Balkan conflicts go back much farther than our U.S. Native American policies. And that's why, personally, I'm not sure what to think about our involvement... particularly if it comes to putting ground troops in Kosovo to root out Serbian police and army units.

Are we going to be able to settle a centuries-long conflict in a matter of weeks?

Yes, we cannot allow genocide to occur. But what is our longer range plan for that area of the world? I'm just looking for a some direction in our foreign policy.

Nick B,
Nick you see thats just it I could name off about 2 or 3 dozen guys that could assassinate Milo. right now. but the Gov. doesnt want to do that They have a secret agenda one that puts them or NATO in control over the balkan states. Nato is covering inch by inch, the entire globe. Actually we only have a couple of real threats out there now. Slow and steady Nato will impose its intervention and rule over the world. Oh yeah by the way Half of my blood is of the Mohawk nation and I totally Disagree with you statement about the Pawnee. If you had land and saw someone on it who hunts only for hide and who takes without asking I think you would be pretty pissed too. Think next time before you talk about your own people.

I was touched by a photo in the NY Times of Serbian woman crouching with her children in a bomb shelter, especially since she looked like someone I knew in college. I know there are Serbian citizens who are not the monsters we read about in the newspapers. But I think there are lot of terrible things that the Serb army is innflicting on innocent civilians.
We have the same dilemna that comes out of any war, which is that even if it is the right fight, how to avoid inflicting costs on the innocent?
But the civilians in Kosovo are innocent also. NATO has been trying to push both sides into a peace, and now without action NATO would appear impotent; then what strength would it have in forcing, yes forcing, a peace, since a peace will probably not come without one side slaughtering the other?
I also understand Serbia's worry about fractionalizing, but I am not sure you could expect the country to stay together, a minority to sit passively, while the government has a policy of "ethnic cleansing."
I don't like the bombings per se. And I used to have a friend who was Serbian in college, so I know first-hand that not all Serbians are killers.

So please tell me what can NATO do at this point?
They won't assasinat Milosovic when he is meeting under the premise of diplomatic negotiations since this would jeopardize the international principles of extraterritorialty and the abiltiy of countries to make diplomatic talks and negotiations. Also, according to the New York Times, NATO needs Milosovic as a person to make a deal with and that if he goes there are other hardliners who won't talk.
I don't want innocent civilians to get hurt, but I think the world maybe needs an international police force that can deal with crisis like genocide and put a stop to them, to stand for an international humane order.
The allies in WWII bombed Germany to end the war and I'm sure there were plenty of Germans who did not sympathize with the Nazi cause, or at least you can say the children were innocent of culpability.
How can NATO stop the Serbian war machine?

Anyone know about the sewing classes being offered in Ankara?

The pillow is almost finished...A few more stitches...respond!

Yes...quilting class already began...staright ahead 10 past old djami...over

First, I see a lot of misdirection of issues both here and in the news. Lets get to basics: Serbia is being bombed because of Milo's continued racist policies in former Yugo provinces. Milosovich started this mess when he took away Kosovo autonomy granted by Tito. Milo provided the impetus for the radicalization of Kosovo and the subsequent formation of the KLA and the separatist movement. Milo has almost single handedly destroyed Yugoslavia, Montenegro is no doubt next. The Serbian people are to blame for their misery for not ousting this racist.

As to NATO causing the mass deportation of Albanians and ethnic cleansing, it was already happening. The difference is Milo is taking advantage of the situation to accellerate the process before a cease fire is declared. If Kosovo is evacuated of the Albanian majority before a cease fire is declared, he has accomplished his goals. Watch, unless NATO forces his hand, he will offer acceptable terms **as soon as the demographics in Kosovo favor ethnic Serbs.**

As to US interests in the Balkans, they are nill. We have no economic, political, or strategic interest in the Balkans save the possibility of halting a spread of the conflict to Greece and Turkey. We have no hidden agenda, respectfully Yugo arms sales are no threat to our arms exports as no one wants Soviet arms after their inferiority became painfully apparent after the Gulf War. We have the best universities and one of the most educated populations in the world, we dont need to import grad students. What we do have as an agenda is to stop Milo's madness which has gone unpunished for too long.

The problem with the bombing is that it was 1.) too late 2.) not intensive enough 3.) not backed up with the threat of ground forces 4.) the amatearishness of the Clinton Administration. It was 1.) too late because the US and the rest of the world should have done something years ago. Those who have said that the UN should handle it obviously want the killing to continue because without the US spurring the UN to act, the UN does nothing but talk. The UN reaction to a problem is to start a special committee, and that is all it has done since 1992. 2.) NATO did not dedicate the forces necessary to deal a decisive blow with air power and 3.) NATO overestimated once again the effectiveness of air power and ruled out ground forces, which is what would force Milo to change his tune with the threat of NATO armor at Belgrade's gates. 4.) The weakness of the Clinton administration is showing, it is unheard of that a US Secretary of State or their aid would be muttering such absolute unverified drivel as has been noted in this discussion group. The administration has approached this conflict hamfistedly and is being outmanuevered by Serbia and its string-pullers in Russia, which brings us to the next subject...

Serbia is not "gallantly and heroicly" opposing NATO power, it is dancing to the tune of the Russian Bear in Moscow. Milo has purposely pushed the buttons that led to this conflict, and anyone with intelligence that has been watching Russian moves in this chess game can see that this is a game of expanding Russian influence and testing American resolve, in addition to testing the strenght of NATO. So far, the Bear has been checking the US administration and NATO left and right. Do you think that Serbia's air defenses are acting in accordance to Iraqi tactics by accident? Do you think that Saddam Hussein would support a regime that is killing Muslims! without an outside backer, namely Russia? This is a much wider game than the Balkans dear friends....

People, do some research on Arcan and his "Tigers" and what they did in the past, MAYBE doing now too. For murdering unarmed men, women and children he became a Serb hero, is there no shame. His deeds will shock you.