daniela, luv
it wasnt my intent to insult you by referring to
'pasting'....more like "gee, m'sieu gunns, things
have changed so much here that daniela even
_wrote_".
but if you _didnt_ axually write that, it's still
okay, okay?
it doesnt change the fact that insulting you
_never_ occurred to me.

apologies as needed.
L'm

Mr T'gunns,

Sorry for the delay and the worry caused.:o)
All that mistique, pour moi?

just a curious fact:

If you plot a graph for US growth and recession and also for the highs and lows of Carbon dioxide emissions- the graphs are virtually identical.
That's for another site I guess.

Re: Nato- I have always been opposed to the use of force in Yugoslavia. Particularly without UN agreement. But the disintergration of yugoslavia was inevitable, with or without Nato intervention, surely. Belgrade lost all credibility as a legitimate government, when they turned the army on their own people.

Yes, globalisation plays a role, but aren't other nations in the same game. China,Russia, Europe, for instance. There was a perceived security threat amongst westerners from the changes occuring in the Russian sphere of influence, fueled by the media, to which western politicians have responded. Leading to excessive interference by Nato and in turn creating insecurity in Russia.

Putin seems to be performing a balancing act at the moment. Internally he needs to take back control of the economy from a self interested Elite. To do this he needs popularist support, which he seeks to gain by fueling Russian nationalism and pride. Hence Chechnia and his stance towards Nato. In the long run a strong Russia both economically and politically is in everyone's interest. Not just as a global market dumping ground, but by creating a global power balance.

In the meantime the conspiracy theories abound.
Reading some of the websites, that are put forward as evidence of Western malice towards the Russians and the Serbs, is like watching Leonard Nimoy on UFO's. I have to say, naaaaa,I don't believe it.
Particularly when such sites descend to the point of "Lets take a shot at Nato and evidence, common sense, and logical arguement be dammed".

Don't attribute to malice, what can be attributed to stupidity! (some of you may have heard that one before :o)

L'm
those remarks weren't directed at you
and I wasn't insulted by you in any way
it was just a general remark

I wrote that stuff in a joking manner
but I couldn't get the intonation right =))

one can go to (again):


http://emperors-clothes.com/indexe.htm

for some new interesting articles

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGGG!

I hate that site- Have the Aliens landed yet?:o)

daniela,
yeah, tone of voice simply cannot be conveyed on
the screen...i've encountered that numerous times,
and hardly just at DMS.
subtleties out the window; i'm always explaining
stuff a second time.
as we've both done just now....

peas in the valley!

L'm

it is mostly in german:

Highly classified reports from
Germany's foreign office
regarding the situation in FRY
and Kosovo prior to March 1999

http://www.knjizevnarec.co.yu/war/documents/germany.html

NATO AIR STRIKES -
http://www.knjizevnarec.co.yu/war/eko/eko5.html

ECOLOGICAL
CONSEQUENCES

V. Janjiæ, member of
Serbian academy

The military aggression of the NATO alliance
against our country characterized by the use
of some of the most advanced air missiles in
the history of the modern warfare has caused
inestimable environmental damages. The
destructive power of the weapons used up
until now exceeds the destructive power of
the atom bomb thrown on Hiroshima. By
creating high temperatures (around 3,000C),
pressure (20-40 atmospheres) and thrust of
several hundred tons, these weapons are
destroying everything that comes their way.

Among other things, these missiles are
creating deep craters and ruining the land
which will need thousands of years to
recuperate. The opinion is that a 240kg heavy
bomb makes a crater with 8 meters in
diameter, 50 meters in surface, 4 meters in
depth and 67m3 in volume. The total surface
of the craters created by the three weeks
NATO aggression is enormous. The damage
becomes even greater if one bears in mind
that not only parts of the land with craters
become unusable, but also all the land
around. Every single airplane attack leaves
behind a crater field with a surface of several
tens of hectares. The destruction of the
upper layers of the soil equals the destruction
of its flora and fauna. As a consequence, the
lower layers of the soil are turning into a
completely useless area whose natural
regeneration could last thousands of years. In
order for the 20cm thick upper layers to be
made, the land needs some 1500 to 7400
years, because within 100 years the surface
layer grows only 0.5-2cm.

The reactions caused by different explosive
devices, fires and the combustion of huge
quantities of different materials and
chemicals, as well as the intensive air
attacks have irreversibly used millions of tons
of oxygen. One of the estimates says that a
single combat plane consumes more oxygen
than 10,000 cars put together. Consequently,
we could conclude that hundreds of tons of
oxygen have virtually disappeared from these
parts of the Balkan peninsula in only three
weeks. The above quantity of oxygen would
be sufficient to maintain life for the next 50
years.

The combustion of oil, petrol, crude oil, motor
oil, tires, asphalt, and other materials on
extremely high temperatures, as well as of
explosive charge of different missile weapons
caused hundreds of products of both
combustion and decomposition (carbon
monoxide, carbon dioxide, nitric oxides,
sulfurous compounds) whose quantities are
now reaching over 1000 million m3 in the
atmosphere. The extreme danger lies in the
excessive presence of sulfur dioxide. These
products of combustion and decomposition
can affect each other and consequently
create some even more perilous compounds
than those previously existing. All of them are
included in the process of the circulation of
matter and energy, so it is more than possible
that they will reach the surface of the earth
and than become part of the chain of food.
Toxic effects of the presence of the above
products are unpredictable to say in the
least.

The NATO aggression has so far created a
huge mountain of waste, the disposal of
which already represents an unsolvable
problem. According to my rough estimates
not even a 500 kilometers long train
composition would be sufficient for all that
waste to be placed into. The process of its
further destruction is almost unobtainable,
since durability is one of the main
characteristics of all these materials . With
regard to the theory on indestructibility of the
matter, the waste can be buried, burnt or
disposed of in some way, bit it continues to
exist in some other form. The process of
burning down the remains of the above
materials even with the use of the most
modern methods has some serious flaws. In
the best of cases, the process of burning
lessens the mass of waste for almost 80%
while noticeably increasing the air pollution.
The remaining 20% would have to be
destroyed on a dump, the process which
causes grave hygienic problems, even
epidemics of different kinds among both
humans and animals.

Along with the destruction of the civilian
population, military personnel, historical,
cultural and infrastructural objects, the
NATO aggression has caused the destruction
of numerous plants and animals in their
natural habitats, as well as in national parks
and reservations. The increased pollution of
air, water, soil, living organisms and food
represents only a small fraction of an
extremely visible environmental misbalance.
The increased pollution and the frightful
degradation of nature will seriously affect the
health of our population, not only in the
present moment, but also through several
generations to come. We will be facing
numerous disorders, both organic and
emotional.

All of the above said must not be ignored.
Someone, that is the members of the NATO
alliance must be brought to justice for all the
damages that they have done, and possibly
could do in the nearest future.

Unicef,

>> Re: Nato- I have always been opposed to the use of force in Yugoslavia. Particularly without UN agreement.>>

Does UN agreement mean it's OK to interfer in the internal affairs another nation? Remember, those decisions are not made by the General Assembly. They are made by only the 5 members of the Security Council.

Allow me to jump straight to my point: I'm not a supporter of the UN. I want the US out of it. I do not have faith in any kind of benign world supra-national government. It is the road surely toward planetary totalitarianism.

>> But the disintergration of yugoslavia was inevitable,>>

What makes you think so? I don't think Yugoslavia disintergrated, rather it was destroyed. On a macro level the process was conciously sought and nurtured. It was planned long ago and was executed according to plan, with adjustments to changing conditions as needed along the way.

>> with or without Nato intervention, surely. Belgrade lost all credibility as a legitimate government, when they turned the army on their own people. >>

Who? Are you talking about the first war with the Croatian secessionists? I believe it is the duty of the armed forces to prevent illegitimate secession. Didn't the USA fight a horrible, bloody civil war over just that? I believe there was a large segment of the population who saw themselves as Yugoslavians and did not want to see the SFRY break up. Everything about a civil war is ugly and dirty. I just don't think there is any high moral ground to take in such a situation.<<

Gotta leave it here for now. It's getting too late and my eyes are not focusing. Need to sleep.

T'gunns

CNN let army
staff into
newsroom

Julian Borger in Washington
Wednesday April 12, 2000

Two leading US news channels
have admitted that they allowed
psychological operations officers
from the military to work as
placement interns at their
headquarters during the Kosovo
war.

Cable Network News (CNN) and
National Public Radio, (NPR)
denied that the "psy-ops" officers
influenced news coverage and
said the internships had been
stopped as soon as senior
managers found out . For its part,
the army said the programme
was only intended to give young
army media specialists some
experience of how the news
industry functioned.

The interns were restricted to
mainly menial tasks such as
answering phones, but the fact
that military propaganda experts
were even present in newsrooms
as reports from the Kosovo
conflict were being broadcast
has triggered a storm of criticism
and raised questions about the
independence of these networks.

"Maybe CNN was the target of a
psy-ops penetration and is still
too naive to figure out what was
going on," wrote Alexander
Cockburn, a liberal newspaper
commentator. "In the Kosovo
conflict, as with other recent
wars, CNN's screen was filled
with an unending procession of
bellicose advocates of bombing,
many of them retired US
generals."

CNN hosted five psy-ops officers
as temporary, unpaid workers
last year, while NPR took three,
all from the army's 4th
Psychological Operations Group,
based at Fort Bragg, North
Carolina. The army's
psychological operations are
prohibited by law from
manipulating the US media.

After the existence of the CNN
internship programme was
published in the Dutch
newspaper, Trouw, the network
immediately cancelled it.

Susan Binford, the head of CNN
public relations said: "Is the
whole thing embarrassing? Yes.
Did it compromise us
journalistically? No."

However, the independent
watchdog group, Fairness &
Accuracy in Reporting asked in a
press release: "Even if the
psy-ops officers working in the
newsroom did not influence news
reporting, did the network allow
the military to conduct an
intelligence-gathering mission
against CNN itself?"


http://www.newsunlimited.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,158410,00.html

Does anyone here watch CNN?

Personaly, I think the Disney Channel is more educational.

if ever the presence of NATO was justified, that
justification was quickly rendered void by their
WW2-style bombing and their disregarding of
ANYthing ANYone had to say on the matter.
=
unicef, all i see from my distant vantage point
are centuries-old buildings pointlessly destroyed,
and too much _death_ bestowed upon the innocent
and uninvolved.
milosevic, running dog that he may well be, is
still in power and _nothing_ was made better.

and _more_ NATO bombing _still_ wont make
_anything_ better.

staying tuned, we are...we so far away from
there..

THE SUNDAY TIMES (London)
April 16 2000

Ailing troops sue over
Balkan war syndrome

SOLDIERS who served in the former Yugoslavia plan to
sue the Ministry of Defence (MoD)after suffering chronic
health problems they believe were caused by "Balkan war
syndrome", writes Lois Rogers.

Doctors link their symptoms to exposure to depleted
uranium in anti-tank missiles used during the Kosovo conflict.
Research has shown that the heavy metal causes health
problems leading to cancer, neurological and immune system
defects and reproductive system damage.

Up to 10,500 Britons were sent to Kosovo to assist in
peacekeeping missions and many were exposed to the fine,
poisonous dust, which remains in the atmosphere and
pollutes water supplies, after Nato's bombardment.

However, the MoD said: "We have done considerably more
research into depleted uranium than other nations as it has
been raised as a concern for a number of Gulf war veterans.
We have seen no evidence to suggest it is the cause of any
illness among them and we are not aware of any
compensation claims from Kosovo veterans."

Twelve servicemen - 11 of whom are still serving - are
preparing to sue. If the initial claims are successful, they
could open the floodgates for a multi-million-pound group
action which could deeply embarrass the government.

The MoD is still struggling to fend off claims by thousands of
Gulf war veterans, who say they were made seriously ill by a
hastily administered cocktail of vaccines in-tended to protect
them from biological warfare agents.

Belgium, which had troops serving alongside British soldiers
in Kosovo, has already begun a systematic review of the
health of the 14,000 troops it sent to the region. Tests have
identified cases of men suffering the effects of exposure to
uranium - even though they were not de-ployed in high-risk
areas.

In Britain, however, the official response has been
unequivocal. A secret memo circulated two weeks ago to
army medical staff by the biological weapons unit at Porton
Down has insisted there was no evidence of risk to British
troops who served in Kosovo.

"I don't know how they can say that," said a 27-year-old
man still in the airborne unit he served with in Kosovo. He
has been crippled by fatigue.

"We are expected to do regular five-mile runs as part of our
training, and I just can't make it," he said. "I am dreading my
next medical in June. I am going to be thrown out."

Another 24-year-old, who is also still in the army, re-ported
debilitating fatigue and excruciating joint pain. "People like us
just have no future," he said.

America was the only allied force to use depleted uranium
(DU) in its missiles. So far it has admitted to firing about 10
tons of DU-bearing missiles from aircraft over Kosovo last
year. Requests for details on missile rounds used in Serbia
have been resisted.

Dan Fahey, a DU re-searcher at the Military Toxins Project
in Washington, said: "We know it has been used in many
more locations than we have been led to believe. The biggest
danger is to the local population."

Additional reporting: Estelle Doyle

KFOR seized arms from the Albanians
April 16, 2000

Pristina, April 15th - Members of the KFOR Peace Forces in
Kosmet seized yesterday at the checkpoint 10 kilometers from
Gnjilane large quantity of arms, including mines and shells. The
arms were transported by Albanians, said today KFOR in
Pristina, and western agencies report.

On that occasion, two Albanian truck-drivers were arrested and put into
custody in the American base "Bondsteel", KFOR spokesman, Major
Frank Benjaminsen said, as AFP reports.

According to his words, while searching the truck, Austrian peacekeepers
found 77 antitank mines, 40 shells, over 1000 bullets, one semiautomatic
gun, two rifles and a machine gun.

Benjaminsen said there was no information about the destination of the
arms.

The fact that this amount of arms can be found in the possession of those
who were "disarmed" long ago, as international forces have been claiming
for months now, remains without explanation.