Archive through August 16, 1999 - Kosovo War

tommygunns — Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:43:00 +0000

L'menexe,

Don't ////off, come back! You have much to contribute with your unique perspective. At least there's one point on which I can agree with Phil - you are (sometimes) funny and often right on target.

Emina,

OK, I take responsibility. It was initially my fault. But will this satisfy Phil?

tommygunns

tommygunns — Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:36:00 +0000

Phil,

Phil wrote:

>>tommy'g, your last two posts to me were indeed refreshing and a
>> wonderful insight to who and what you are. Good luck in you quest.
>>The 'true believers' are out there for sure. I'm sure they'll find you
>>and your point of view reassuring.

Hmmmmm? Subtle insults, but it fits your style. You ARE a master of
the oblique, aren't you? A tiresome tactic of those who have no real
point of view but are, nevertheless, enthralled with the sound of their
own voice. Personally, I prefer the direct approach - if it sounds, talks,
acts like a jerk, call it a jerk

>>Regarding your plaintif complaint regarding my "interjection," if you
>>don't want someone to acknowledg your presence, quietness is a
>>marvelous remedy. Coming into a fourm such as this preclueds
>>privacy especially when you post inflamatory messages. It was
>>those posts I was responding to, not your conversation with Ermina
>>and Zoja, but I though you knew that. Silly me.

Ah, shucks. Silly me! And I thought that long, convoluted lecture
in your 8/9 post had something to do with finding "uncensored"
information sources. Rereading it I looked carefully between the
lines for references to my so-called "inflamatory messages" but only
found white space! Aha, there it is, at the end of your second lecture
posted on 8/11.

Re: "inflamatory" messages - well, shucks Phil, why
didn't you just say so. If you've got something good to report about
Mad Madeleine, I'm all ears. If you object to the content of the posted
article re: the ASEAN conference, then write to the editor or reporter of
the newspaper. If you object to Howard Zinn's list of U.S. interventions,
well, too bad - that's the historical record, dude. On the other hand,
history and truth are expendable in the march toward a brave new
world order, right? Whew! Talk about true believers!

>>With respect to your seven points:

(For the sake of brevity, I won't repeat the points. Anyone interested
can read the earlier posts.)

>>1. And so the Yougosovian regeim gave us vivid immages of living
>>skeletons hanging onto wire fences back in the early '90s to help
>>their cause.

If you're referring to the photo of the emaciated young man clinging to
barbed wire that made the cover of Time magazine, then you haven't
been paying attention to the news. Take another look at the photo.
You'll notice the barbed wire is attached to the posts on the wrong side
for it to be an enclosure. You'll also notice there's no fence, barbed or
otherwise, in the distance. This was pointed out by a Texas rancher
who knows a thing or two about barbed wire fences. He suspected that
the photographer was inside a barbed wire enclosure, not the young
man.

Well, a photo on the cover of Time and other major media worldwide is
a big feather in a photog's cap, not to mention the $$s. She (the
photographer) managed to duck the questions for sometime until it
grew into a major uproar in Britain and she was forced to admit that,
yes, she was inside a barbed wire enclosure where tractors and other
equipment were stored and she called that particular young man over
from a crowd of men standing about a relief distribution center
specifically because of his emaciated condition.

No one questioned what this photo implied, and she offered no
explanation of how it was composed - allowing it to be used as a
symbol for increased demonization of one side in an already tragic war.
This was one media whore who sold her integrity for a few shekels and
probably prolonged and worsened a war that until then had little or no
public support. Just what the warmongers in NATO needed to stoke
the fires and turn up the heat and rally a gullible public to give
legitimacy to their ongoing and continuing efforts to destroy SFRY.

Remember the mortars launched by Serb forces into a crowded
Sarajevo market? It turns out that those explosions were caused not
by mortar shells, but by handmade and hand delivered bombs (mortars
and placed bombs have different effects when they explode). Recent strong evidence suggests they were put there by mujahedeen seeking
increased world attention and outside intervention for their cause of an
independent islamic Bosnia. Of course, NATO was all too willing to
oblige - as the saying goes, "when opportunity knocks…." Yes, it's
documented. No, I'm not going to do the research for you! You can find
it if you can tear yourself away from the lecture circuit and do a the
footwork.

At least there's no doubt where the bombs came from that killed a
number of people in a market town in Kosovo, and then returned ten
minutes later to drop more bombs on those who came to the rescue of
the wounded. We don't hear a lot about that in the western "free"
press, but then it doesn't quite fit the "good-guys" scenario.

Makes you wonder about the infamous "rape hotels", not to mention
Sbrenica, Racak, etc.

>>2. Exactly how was the economy weakened? I find this point of view
>>fascinating. As far as Bosnia, see above.

The usual IMF way - huge loans, huge debt, inability to make
payments followed by more loans with demands for wage controls,
privatization, downsizing, shutdowns resulting in unemployment, rising
prices, etc., - a never ending cycle of debt and instability and
economic colonization by western capital.

>>3. I'd say the "good guys" had a lot of help from the "bad guys" in
>>that labeling process. They (the bad uns) were caught doing what
they were want to do.

So the "good-guys" do to the "bad-guys" what they believe the
"bad-guys" did to the other "good-guys", and now we've got "bad good-
guys" in cahoots with even "badder bad-guys" cleansing the "bad-guys"
that originally….jeeeeez, Phil! You're points just go round in circles.
Stop spinning in air, this isn't a John Wayne movie; it isn't about "good-
guys" and "bad-guys". It's about OIL, OIL, AND MORE OIL. It's about
POWER AND CONTROL AND MARKETS…it's about keeping the
American people fat, happy, and content in their SUVs, gaudy
suburban mini-mansions, dining out at Burger King in their Calvins
made in Indonesian sweatshops.

Don't worry! Be happy! Go to the circus!

>>4. They had a legal right to run the province. That right was taken
>>away in the early '90s. "illegal emmigrants"??? Give a friggin break
>>already.

Wrong. They dominated and ruled Kosovo as though it were an Albanian state, harassing and driving out other ethnic groups and squandered the aide and revenue payments from the Federal government on self-aggrandizing projects. When their wings were clipped, they got peeved and withdrew from all public activities, refused to vote (they were a clear majority and could still have major influence), and created a parallel system, eventually attacking and even murdering those Albanians who tried to work within the system.

>>5. There is no objective evidence that the KLA is at the core of any
>>durg smuggling. Nor is there any believable evidence that Thaqi is a
>>gangster or has personally or indirectly eliminated anyone.

There is plenty of "objective evidence" of the Albanian control of the
heroin trade through the Balkans, and Kosovo itself as the major
staging and transshipment point. Here's a few places you can find
plenty of evidence: Interpol, German court documents, U.S. State Dept.
reports.

Well, Phil, you tell me. Who/what is Thaci? You seem to think he is the
brightest, most capable of the KLA leadership. On what do you base
your opinions? Is he maybe a graduate of the University of Chicago
School of Public Policy? a degree in Import/Export Finance perhaps?
or maybe he was a businessman in Skoder, a BMW dealership?
Really, Phil, are you naïve? or just too lazy to get around the block
And see what the boys in the hood are up to?

>>6. A) I think you mean mining as in Trepcr, C) Your pont? c) in other
>>words, rational change, D) your slobbering and have a glazed look
>>in you eyes. That is one of the tiredest arguments ever put forward.
>>It didn't make sense when it was first put forward and it still dosen't
>>today. But the faithful still cling to it to help them get through the day.

Oh, the pettiness of your insults. Don't waste your time. How about an
alternative theory? Got a better idea?

A) No, I meant OIL. Just what I said. Remember the words of the
hookah-smoking caterpillar from Alice in Wonderland, "Say what you
mean, and mean what you say" - words to live by. B) hear the
caterpillar - capital and markets, what capitalism is all about, not to be
confused with free market economics (hmmmmm. I can already
envision you twisting on this one! [:>') C) He, he - sure, from a
bully's perspective it's perfectly rational to beat the other guy up if he
doesn't play the game your way; D) Take a course in geopolitics,
maybe you'll understand - e.g., Panama 1989, test case "can we get
away with breaking all treaties and international laws and invade a
country and kidnap their leader?" Iraq 1990, another test case "can we
trick our big weapons and chemical customer/ally into believing it's ok
with the U.S. to retake what was originally stolen from it by the Brits,
then convince the "international community" to support a war to save
the ass of a decadent petty dictator, and proceeding to destroy the
total infrastructure of the only nation in the Arab world that was strong,
industrialized, wealthy, with a large and growing educated middle class
and didn't dance to the tune of London bankers. The examples are too
numerous to continue. DO RESEARCH! ASK QUESTIONS! Best word
in the English language is WHY. Use it often.

>>7. I take it your not a Capatalist? ;o) I heard taht the only difference
>>between capatalists and socialists is that capatialists work for their
>>riches, socialist use laws.

No, and neither are you. You have neither the $$, nor the power to be
in the club. However, I do believe in free market economics. (Twist 'n
spin, dude - he, he.)

>>Another tired saw. The US did not act alone. Seventeen other
>>countries with their own 'deals' had to be brought on board. Clark
>>and Jackon's task was much like hearding cats. Of course obvious
>>details like that do no affect the thinking of "true believers."

NATO policy is made in closed, secret sessions of the North Atlantic
Council. No votes are taken. Those members who object to a particular
policy or undertaking have only the option of not participating (e.g.,
Greece's refusal to join the attack on Yugoslavia). It is NOT a
democratic process. It is primarily a bully club run by the U.S.,
Britain, Germany, and (sometimes) France and Italy.

Without U.S. weapons and technology NATO could not have
undertaken this criminal act of aggression. Clark took his orders
directly from Washington and could give a rats ass what the
Europeans wanted. The only honorable act of the "generals" was
Jackson's refusal to attack the Russians at the airport and risk a
real war.

Yes, I do pay attention to the details. Methinks a hell of a lot more than
you do. In fact, going through this and your earlier posts I'm beginning
to get a clearer picture of who really is the "true believer" here. Your
remarks often come across as canned and scripted. I'm wondering
about your source of information. Do you have access to sources other
than television in your area? Like alternative newspapers, listener
sponsored radio, public libraries, political organizations other than
republicrats.

Fallwell, indeed!! The one that believes little purple stuffed creatures are secret messengers of the "homosexual lifestyle". What a joke, Phil. There's a big difference between understanding history, geopolitics, and imperialist strategies and the whacked out hallucinations and fantasies of an idiot who's consumed way too much biblical opium.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, dude!

BTW - please stop apologizing for your atrocious spelling. The more you apologize, the worse it gets. My mama always said, "If you have to say your sorry more than once, then you didn't learn anything."

Cheers and a GREAT BIG SMILEY,

tommygunns

zoja — Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:53:00 +0000

To Phil and Tommyguns

I wrote earlier the best thing anyone can do who wants to know more about a subject like this is look at every side in the matter. And what's even more important, get you info from people within, not from outside.

My method usually is to start looking at the side the establishment and government is pickig on, the real and true underdog so to speak. If I look at Bosnia, it would be Dani magazine. It took and is still taking a lot of flack from the government, a sign of independence to me.

For the rest I think you guys have a funny way of making arguments. AND you forget one thing! After Tito died some guys smelt power. One of them was Milosevic. On top of that many conflicts, dating back at least to the second world war, and even earlier than that, were swept under the rug when Tito came to power. So, Milosevic and his cronies decided to brush up and even kindle these old conflicts. Divide and Rule was their credo.

In spite of heavy resistance, the divide and rule party had their way. Result, four wars in a decade with only losers.

I do not believe in this 'oil point of view'. Had there been oil in Bosnia for instance, the world would not have stood idly by as thousands of innocent people got slaughtered. Nonono! The US army would have been all over the place in days, just like when Saddam invaded Kuwait. Bosnia at that time costed too much money for to little prophit (Like true Ferenghys!)

Zoja

philtr — Sun, 15 Aug 1999 02:12:00 +0000

Emina, It's T'gunner's fault! I cut and pasted w/o looking (...er...paying attention...that is) <:-( I should know better. Sorry. Love ya!

phil

danica — Sat, 14 Aug 1999 23:52:00 +0000

"If Britain Had Stood on the Side of Adolf Hitler...it would be an identical parallel to NATO in Kosovo"

"NATO Now ... Allows the Terrorist Thug Outfit KLA To Murder and Ethnically Cleanse Kosovo"
By: Mary Mostert, Analyst, Original Sources http://originalsources.com/OS8-99MQC/8-10-1999.1.shtml

August 10, 1999

In a small community in Northeastern England, Bethany Megan Robinson sent a letter to the editor of her local paper, the "Northern
Echo." It was very short, and very British:

"If Britain had stood on the side of Adolf Hitler when he used the feeble excuse that it was for the sake of the ethnic Germans in
Czechoslovakia that he made his incursion, this would have been an identical parallel to the stance taken recently by NATO in
Kosovo.

"Why else would NATO now stand idly by and allow the terrorist thug outfit KLA to murder and ethnically cleanse Kosovo Serbs and
non-Albanians?. This whole stinking situation has more to do with the takeover of sovereign nations by a force which, to draw
another interesting parallel to the last Nazi beast, calls itself a 'New World Order."

Is this a bit harsh? Is NATO REALLY standing idly by and allowing "the terrorist thug outfit KLA murder and ethnically cleanse Kosovo
Serbs and non-Albanians? Is NATO the 1990s parallel to the Third Reich? Could the same thing REALLY happen the same way twice in
50 years?

Let me draw your attention to a couple of other facts. Before March 24, 1999, the United Nations and NATO said there were
2,000,000 people in Kosovo, a province of Serbia, which had been the cradle of the Serbian Orthodox Church going back to the time
of the First Archbishop of the Serbs, Sava, who was born in 1175 AD. Of those 2 million people, 90% were Albanians - many of whom
had fled into Kosovo since the collapse of the Albanian Communist government, and the nation's economic collapse resulting from
fraudulent investment schemes in 1997, which led to a 70% unemployment rate in Albania.

World Almanac population figures show that as of 1997 Yugoslavia had experienced an increase in the percentage of Albanians living
in the country from 8% in 1984 to 14% in 1997. Whereas there was something like 800,000 ethnic Albanians living in Kosovo in the
late 1980s, by the time NATO started bombing on March 24th, they claimed there were 1,800,000 Albanians - to about 200,000
Serbs, Montenegrins and Gypsies.

On May 26th, two months into NATO's bombing, the United Nations claimed there were 600,000 Albanian refugees who had fled
Kosovo. That would be one third of the Ethnic Albanian population. On August 10, approximately two months into NATO's
peacekeeping in Kosovo, more than three-fours of the non-Albanian minority population have fled Kosovo. It appears that NATO's
peacekeeping is a more effective method of ethnic cleansing than NATO's bombing.

In case you have forgotten what the purpose of Clinton's and NATO's bombing was, let's take a look at a press statement I plucked
off the US State Department Website, issued by James P. Rubin, husband of CNN's Christiane Amanpour and spokesman for Madeleine
Albright, issued on April 3, 1999:

"Secretary Albright has been consulting regularly with the Foreign Ministers of France, Germany, Italy and the United Kingdom
regarding the situation in Kosovo and the surrounding region. She and the other Ministers agreed, on April 2, that their governments'
objective is a peaceful multi-ethnic democratic Kosovo in which all its people live in security. This objective can be achieved by the
return of all refugees and therefore the deployment of an international security force, the withdrawal of Serb military, police and
paramilitary forces, and putting in place of a political framework for Kosovo on the basis of the Rambouillet accords."
So, the bombing raged, a peace agreement was signed, there's now something like 30,000 NATO troops and about 3,000 Russian
troops in Kosovo, and how are we doing towards establishing "a peaceful multi-ethnic democratic Kosovo in which all its people live in
security?"

I found this interesting little analysis at: http://www.unfoundation.org/unwire/unwire.cfm#1, on the United Nations website entitled:
US Undermines UN Authority in Conflict Resolution, Author Says:

"US strategy for the conclusion of the war in Kosovo 'was to set up the UN as the fall guy,' writes author Phyllis Bennis in an editorial
in the Baltimore Sun. Bennis, who wrote Calling The Shots: How Washington Dominates Today's UN, says the United States violated
the UN charter by using NATO to authorize its air war against Yugoslavia instead of placing the issue before the UN.

" 'The United States rejected any UN role in decision-making about military action. But now Washington holds the UN accountable for
the messy aftermath of the US-NATO war,' she writes. As ethnic tensions in Kosovo continue to escalate, 'the UN's task will become
more daunting, and Washington's position is likely to make the mission's failure much more likely.'

The UN, which was totally ignored back in March when Clinton announced he was bombing Yugoslavia, now is being blamed for the
incredible mess in Kosovo. Meanwhile, CNN reported yesterday, with pictures of the raging mob of KLA instigated Albanians in
Kosovska Mitrovica: "Albanian demonstrators hurled two big stones at the soldier and hit him with a stick, according to the French
contingent's chief information officer, Philip Tanguy. The injured soldier was rushed by ambulance to the French military hospital in
serious condition with a cracked skull, he said." These "Albanian demonstrators," according to a Serb report of the same incident:
"...attempted again today to pass the bridge on Ibar forcibly and enter the northern part of town, provoke incidents and force Serbs
from that part of the town to move away.

"Strong forces of the French KFOR aided with armored personnel carriers and guns in hands prevented today, just as they did
yesterday, the attempt of the Albanian extremists from entering the northern part of town. "Infuriated by the efforts of French KFOR
to keep peace and order, the Albanians insulted the KFOR troops, threw stones and cans at them, while singing all the time
nationalist songs. "One member of the French KFOR told Tanjug that there was no doubt that the so-called "KLA" stood behind the
violent behavior. "Groups of Albanian terrorists opened mortar and automatic gunfire last evening, for the third straight night, from
the southern part of Kosovska Mitrovica, from where all Serbian families have been expelled, on the northern part of town inhabited
mostly by Serbs."

How come CNN calls people who have fired, and are firing, mortar shells at unarmed civilians "demonstrators?" Is this all part of
Christiane Amanpour's spin in favor of her fellow Muslims? It's no longer possible for CNN to pretend that there is nothing going on
over in Kosovo in the way of ethnic cleansing. In fact, the ethnic cleansing actually started when NATO forces GOT there. Even if all
the Albanians who fled Kosovo, to avoid either the bombing or the ground war being waged between the Yugoslav Army and the KLA,
had stayed away, Kosovo would still be an ethnically mixed state. A million Albanians remained throughout the NATO bombing.

Today, as the Serbs, the Gypsies, the Montenegrins and many ethnic Albanians who are not supporters of the KLA are either killed or
driven out of Kosovo, it would seem that Bethany Megan Robinson has an excellent point in saying: "If Britain had stood on the side
of Adolf Hitler when he used the feeble excuse that it was for the sake of the ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia that he made his
incursion, this would have been an identical parallel to the stance taken recently by NATO in Kosovo."

What we have done in the Balkans in the 1990s, under Bill Clinton and Tony Blair, is to stand on the side of the children and
grandchildren of those Croatian, Bosnian Muslim and Albanian supporters of Adolf Hitler who slaughtered the Jews in the Balkans and
over one million Serbs. What is really incredible about this is that the propaganda has been so effective that even many American
Jews have stood at the side of those who have rekindled Hitler's hatreds and adopted his propaganda techniques against the Serbs.

To comment: mmostert@originalsources.com

emina — Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:45:00 +0000

PHIL AND TOMMYGUNNS.

I don't mind you quoting me, but do me a favour and write my name right. EMINA .As you both can see there is no R there.

Anyway due to lack of time i can't contribute to really to the discussution going on right now, be back after my training to discuss things further IF needed

Emina

philtr — Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:02:00 +0000

L'menexe, you're too funny. Thanks for the laugh. Really, it's not all that bad though. Just ideas, being discussed by people who can agree to disagree. Its not very stimulating to have a discussion with another believer. Progress and understanding would be the first casualties.

Your so right that many including yourself have predicted that the Kosovo situation would become an unmitigated disaster, which it is quickly becoming. NATO and UNMIK are largely to blame for it seems the they were unprepared to support the cesation of hostilities (one of the many outcomes of trying to heard cats.) UNMIK seems to be ineffective. Complaining that the UN member countries have failed to follow through in their pormises does not help their image.

The KLA is failing miserably to show restraint and leadership, and therefore reassure NATO and the UNMIK, the reasons now beginning to become obvious and so may never achieve the leadership status they seek. Opportunities lost.

phil

L'menexe — Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:36:00 +0000

==koff==

(sigh)

(shrug)

(ducking)

philtr — Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:10:00 +0000

tommy'g, your last two posts to me were indeed refreshing and a wonderful insight to who and what you are. Good luck in you quest. The 'true believers' are out there for sure. I'm sure they'll find you and your point of view reassuring.

Regarding your plaintif complaint regarding my "interjection," if you don't want someone to acknowledg your presence, quietness is a marvelous remedy. Coming into a fourm such as this preclueds privacy especially when you post inflamatory messages. It was those posts I was responding to, not your conversation with Ermina and Zoja, but I though you knew that. Silly me. Please forgive spelling.

With respect to your seven points:

" 1. Kosova is one battle in a much bigger war, the Balkan segment beginning in the late 80s, and had nothing to do with humanitarian concerns. The SFRY was targeted for destruction because 1) it was an independent socialist entity in Europe that 2) presented an obstacle to the projection of western power into and eventual control of Caspian OIL. See the World Socialist Website at www.wsws.org for an excellent analysis. "

And so the Yougosovian regeim gave us vivid immages of living skeletons hanging onto wire fences back in the early '90s to help their cause.

" 2. First the IMF began the destabilization of the SFRY economy in the mid 80s, followed by German (and later US) intelligence ops egging on Croat and Slovene secessionists and stirring up ethinic rivalries. With a foothold in a weakened SFRY, the west turned toward Bosnia, stoking the flames of ethnic rivalries there. "

Exactly how was the economy weakened? I find this point of view fascinating. As far as Bosnia, see above.

" 3. The Serbs were early on designated the "bad guys" and were subjected to continuous demonization. Serbia, the geographic heartland of Yugoslavia, had to be isolated before the final coup de grace. Think of a bullfight, the toreadors weakening and tiring the bull so the Matador can swoop in with the final cut. "

I'd say the "good guys" had a lot of help from the "bad guys" in that labeling process. They (the bad uns) were caught doing what they were want to do.

" 4. The Albanians of Kosovo have had a free hand for decades, virtually running the province and continuous harrassment of the non-Albanian population. Their ranks swelled with illegal immigrants from Albania (itself a basket case). "

They had a legal right to run the province. That right was taken away in the early '90s. "illegal emmigrants"??? Give a friggin break already.

" 5. The KLA was/is the core of heroin trafficking in Europe. French, German, Czech jails are filled with Albanian drug smugglers. Despite the saville row suits and salon haircut, Thaci is still a gangster and thug who has already "eliminated" other rivals within the KLA and wouldn't hesitate getting rid off Selimi, etc. if they get in the way of his self-assumed power as
"Prime Minister". "

There is no objective evidence that the KLA is at the core of any durg smuggling. Nor is there any believable evidence that Thaqi is a gangster or has personally or indirectly eliminated anyone.

" 6. We can argue about Thaci, Rugova, Izetbegovic, Trujman, the Ustasha, Sbrenica, Racak, Milosevic, ad infinitum, but what the entire Balkans situation boils down to is A) Oil, B) capital and markets, C) the overthrow of existing international law, D) the usurpation of power by a western elite towards the establishment of global dominance - yep, a New World Order - that does not bode well for PEOPLE anywhere. Conspiracy? Yes! From the perspective of
those in the upper realms of world power and influence events DO NOT happen accidentally; there are no significant surprises and what happens on the ground is of little concern. "

A) I think you mean mining as in Trepcr, C) Your pont? c) in other words, rational change, D) your slobbering and have a glazed look in you eyes. That is one of the tiredest arguments ever put forward. It didn't make sense when it was first put forward and it still dosen't today. But the faithful still cling to it to help them get through the day.

" 7. My posting of the list of US interventions was to point out that the current US involvement Kosovo is not new or unusual. US intervention is simply business as usual...it is business that calls the shots, and it is the nature of the
system to expand, subdue, and control. Getting rid of the government, changing administrations, etc., has zip effect on the system. "

I take it your not a Capatalist? ;o) I heard taht the only difference between capatalists and socialists is that capatialists work for their riches, socialist use laws.

" Enough! There are a million points that could be argued about (what I meant by "petty"), but they are insignificant in the big picture. The Russians never were very good at empire-building to begin with, so Reagan's characterization of them as the "Evil Empire" was a joke -- lurking in the background was "Evil Empire II" which has finally shown its face to the world in Kosovo. "

Another tired saw. The US did not act alone. Seventeen other countries with their own 'deals' had to be brought on board. Clark and Jackon's task was much like hearding cats. Of course obvious details like that do no affect the thinking of "true believers."

" Funny you should lump me with Fallwell, Dobson, et. al.????? Try Trotsky. "

I think not. Your much more suited for Fallwall et. al.

" I've got a choir to gather and the faithful to preach to. "

The ring of truth can be heard indeed.

phil

L'menexe — Sat, 14 Aug 1999 08:54:00 +0000

gee i dunno guys...
maybe we need a return of the dreaded h'niq or something so that people ostensibly not on different "sides" would quit firing away at each other.
me, i've never been as informed as you two are/might be on this subject and havent claimed as much either.
and i wouldnt have to be, to anticipate the sort of horrorshow "payback" bullsh*t as daniela describes.
and if you go back and read the archives, i mustnt have been the only one in anticipation.
'sfunny, i thought my last couple exchanges w/"kissie" were not unpositive. now daniela, reviled not too long ago here, has scored a couple bullseyes too. maybe i wouldnt want to know their in-depth opinions on this affair or in general., but i'll give 'em their "due" credit.
actually i regretted my "abyss" posting and there was no solace in being agreed with.
the world pays zero notice as my/our anticipations come to pass. people do the same f*ckin sh*t over and over and over again. we are indeed "condemned to repeat it". for that matter, am i bound to be increasingly more ashamed to have been "born in the usa" (to quote a song disgustingly co-opted and perverted by folks who didnt bother to actually LISTEN to it)?
in the long run i'm better off with "cartoons and songs" as mr gunns put it.
c'mon h'niq, rat-bastard that you are, show your face anew and give us all a target!