Empire Through Silence


Note: I hope that I can return my column to publication on Monday every
week, but we'll see.

---

Right Magazine, http://www.rightmagazine.com
May 17, 1999

Say 'No' To World Empire Through Silence
by Michael R. Allen

After nearly two months of a relentless attack on Serbia, NATO shows no
signs of dissipating its actions. But citizens of nearly every country
in the world are standing up and saying 'no' to this latest global
malevolence. Anti-war activities are growing in places from Italy to
Australia. Countless marches and protests have been staged outside
the White House in Washington - the driving force behind NATO's new
mission to create, not prevent, war.

Still, the average American who opposes this war likely has not done
very much to protest it. Liberal, feminist, and other groups that
organized massive protests against the Gulf War are keeping silent as a
president they helped elect embraces militarism that would make Richard
Nixon blush. At least these quiet newcomers to the War Party have
something right: silence.

Silence provides time for introspection and remembrance. It often is
the most meaningful way to express intense emotions. Busy schedules
usually preclude much silence in the lives of people, even though a few
minutes of meditation can clear the mind for the rest of the day.

Keep the beauty of silence in mind, the always-busy Chris Whitten, who
brought the web Free-Market.Net, and writer J.D. Tuccille have launched
an effort to fight the NATO empire with silent protest. The two-month
anniversary of the start of the air strikes on Serbia is May 24th. In
recognition of that horrible date in the history of the world, Whitten
and friends want the world to keep two minutes of silence at 12:00p.m.
Eastern Daylight Time on that day. While the harsh sounds of bomb
explosions rock the Balkans, peaceful people will be quiet, remembering
the horrors of this war.

They will remember the self-absorbed actions of US President Bill
Clinton and his chief conspirator, UK Prime Minister Tony Blair.
Blair's excuses for civilian deaths in particular are sickening
exercises in removing meaning from words. Of course, as the
London Independent has noted, "nothing so far has dented
[Blair's] Churchillian resolve." Blair's resolve is only the shadow
cast by his American pals, however.

Clinton and his administration are transfixed on destroying the will of
the Serbian people, and aiding the terrorist Kosovar Liberation Army.
The apologia issued for forcibly separating Kosovo from Yugoslavia are
wrapped in the supposedly unarguable terms "never again," "ethnic
cleansing," and "self-determination." Ignored are KLA ties to drug
trafficking and Western oil interests that would be served by a
friendly
government in Kosovo. Also ignored are the lives of both Serbs and
ethnic Albanians killed by stray bombs.

The silent protesters will recall the sad saga of the three captured US
soldiers who were brought home with aid from the Reverend Jesse
Jackson.
These men were not reported to be harmed by their captors - one wrote a
thank-you note to his guards - but their ordeal was nonetheless tragic
for all Americans. The soldiers enlisted to defend the US Constitution
against foreign aggressors, but ended up bombing a far-away nation that
had valiantly resisted Nazi occupation during the second world war.
The
soldiers were more fortunate than the nearly 100 NATO-led servicemen
reported dead by the Greek paper Athinaiki.

In the silence, the civilian casualties can be remembered. According
to
the Yugoslavian government, 1,200 civilians have been killed and 5,000
have been injured since NATO bombing began. The vivid images of
carnage
are gruesome: the over 100 Albanians, mainly women and children, dead
in
Korisa; the journalists found in the rubble of the burned television
studios in Belgrade; the convoy of refugees mistakenly bombed; the
scorched metal of the trains and busses hit; and the Chinese embassy
workers gathered where their friends were bombed to death. And these
deaths listed are only since NATO intervened; countless deaths had
occurred in fighting before then.

Particularly disturbing are the reports of children who find the
bomblets left by cluster bombs. The dangerous CBU-87s, ATACMs, and
RBL-755s are colored in bright oranges and yellows, making them very
attractive to a curious kid. That NATO and US shills can
apologize for these incidents should dispel any notions that this war
is
based on humanitarian concerns.

In the silence, all other atrocities committed in wars throughout
history come to mind. The world has truly not learned that government
is the chief enemy to the liberty of the people. Warfare is a key
component of a world system of government: it provides super-national
organizations like NATO the chance to assert their supremacy, boosts
flagging economies with more credit creation, and tempts people into a
phony patriotic cause so that they ignore the real threat to their
freedom.

The Vietnam War should have been the last straw for freedom-loving
citizens. Its pointlessness and the shallow manner in which its
organizers acted outraged millions of young people around the world.
Yet thirty years later a Vietnam protester is leading his country into
another pointless war - and Americans still aren't fully awake to the
horrors of war.

During two minutes of silence, a vision of a free world emerges.
Warfare is gone, free trade and cultural exchange thrive, and power is
never granted to international bureaucrats and presidents, let alone
minor government officials. This world may never be achieved, but its
guiding principles are the only ones that fully acknowledge the rights
of each human. To get to this world, each person must declare his
opposition to warfare. The silent protest is a great start toward that
end.

On May 24th, let the world be silent! Through silence, peaceful people
can proclaim a powerful message.

Find out more at http://www.MomentOfSilence.org

Guido,Zoja, Emina
You've been fighting the just cause.

Even Milosovic is ready to give up,
he knows its over. He knows he's wrong.
But the pitbulls on this Board are full of fight.

Milo has his assets in South Africa as we speak.
He'll live long (and free for a while),
but his those that sided with him
now live in ruins, no water, no heat, no electra.

I can't wait for the day when the free press
will roam - FREELY - inside Kosovo,
and the mass graves are dug open.

Wonder what the Barbarians on the Board (BOBs)
will have to say about the images that will
come out of the region then.

Wonder if they will go back and review their
opinions after Judge Arbour start
releasing the indictments for mass murder,
genocide, rapes and abuses.

The day is near
when the Barbarians on the Board (BOBs)
will HAVE TO SEE REALITY
EVEN IF THEY CLOSE THEIR EYES TO IT.

Guido,

Congrats !
You pissed off that shitt-smoking punk.

You really got his juices flowing.
Or maybe not.
Maybe it was just some bad weed.

This is likely the most active his heart
has been since the '60s.
The state has been trying to get the bum
off his buttt for the last 20 years,
but he claims disability,
and stays home all day,
using his free time
in absolute freedom
to badmouth this freedom EARNED for him
by many men and women
who died even before reaching his age.

The one thing worse than Serbian Soldiers
are Serbian Soldier Sympathizers.
People that use hard-earned freedom .... to badmouth
the country that protects and feeds them.

DdC -
this is not the sixties - man.
There is no room for hippies in this matter.
We are way back to the @#%$&! '40s

Guess who runs the concentration camps,
the deportation trains, mass graves and STATE TV?
Your SERB friends - that's who.

THE NAZI COMPARISON
Drug War prisoners that I correspond with call themselves POWs. Some write
"POW in
America" in the corner of an envelope under the writerÕs name and prison
number.
"Political prisoner" and "gulag" are terms that enter conversation.
SolzhenitsynÕs The First
Circle and The Gulag Archipelago are works sometimes referred to.
AmericaÕs vast network of prisons, boot camps, and jails invites
comparison with the
detention machinery of former totalitarian regimes. The certainty of
conviction that an
accusation of a drug law violation brings -- through confession (95
percent) or trial and a
finding of guilt (the remaining 5 percent) -- matches the idea of
automatic conviction that
goes with popular belief about the nazi and communist systems. "Nazi" is a
term used by
Drug War prisoners and non-prisoners alike, as though it were a given that
the mentality
behind Nazi behavior a half-century ago and the operation of today Õs Drug
War is no
different.
The comparison is an uncomfortable one, and oneÕs first inclination is to
reject it. A US
judge has objected that nothing in the conduct of todayÕs Drug War
resembles the terror
tactics in Nazi Germany where SS troops could storm into a personÕs home
and no one saw
or heard of that person again. The objection is understandable, but it
rests on a false
premise. The Nazis were not a bunch of crooks, operating outside the
confines of the law.
Everything they did had legal backing, and if on some occasion a law was
needed they
composed one.
Flat out, it will be objected that a world of difference separates a
prison from a death camp.
Drug War prisoners are not intended for a holocaust. Ominously for our
peace of mind,
however, until the last minute neither were the people held in
concentration camps. They
were held there to protect the health of society. Moreover, with the
obsession with death
that gains ground daily, it is probable that death is in the cards for
people accused of drug
law violations in the future. A questionnaire is making the rounds in
Congress that has Yes
and No boxes for questions which include: "Do you favor the death penalty
for drug
trafficking?" Who in their right mind in Congress, I wonder, will check No
to that question,
"trafficking" being the loaded term for what most people call dealing?
Someone will point to the absurdity of thinking that America would ever
tolerate a "Fuhrer,"
a wild man with a funny mustache and a way of haranguing crowds burlesqued
by Charlie
Chaplin. The point, though, is that the Nazi comparison refers not so much
to rhetoric,
inevitably different in two quite different places and at different times,
as to the
dehumanization and trashing of large numbers of people for lifestyles and
practices that
violate the norms of mainstream society. For this we do not need a Hitler.
We can do it the
American way.
Myself, I am sympathetic to the Nazi comparison. I was in Nazi Germany as
a child.
In the summer of 1938, when I was 14, my parents sent me on a two-week
vacation with a
family in a village in north-west Germany. There were Mr. and Mrs. Otting,
their daughter
Irmgard, and the youngest son Wolfgang, who wore his Hitler Jugend uniform
at
Wednesday night meetings. The two older sons I never saw. One was in the
army. The
other was doing two years of voluntary farm labor, which excused him from
army service.
Mr. and Mrs. Otting were old-time Christians, and had the family bible on
display in the
china cabinet in the dining room. On the shelf above the Holy Bible you
saw the red and
white dust jacket of Mein Kampf, HitlerÕs version of scripture. No one
said anything about
it, but there had to be a copy of Mein Kampf on display for two reasons.
Every five or six
houses or apartments had an informant who could sift through mail, collect
gossip, and pay
a visit to make sure the householder did not have suspicious material
lying around. Also,
schoolchildren were taught to report suspicious behavior to the police.
There wasnÕt any TV, but there was plenty of entertainment -- parades,
outdoor concerts,
Hitler on the radio, sports.
The economy was great. Everyone had a job. Germany was strong. Hitler
wanted peace.
New construction was going up everywhere. The trains ran on time. You
didnÕt see
beggars in the street, hanging around. Undesirables had been rounded up,
got out of the
way.
The newspapers were full of praise for the Nazi system. A weekly
periodical with pictures
showed who the Untermenschen were, the underclass of people who had no
place in decent
society. In those days the underclass consisted of gypsies, Jews,
homosexuals, the wrong
sort of artists, trade unionists, and communists. They were described in
terms we now call
demonization and scapegoating.
The universities had their share of academics who endorsed Nazi policy.
Doctors, engineers,
race specialists, and others spelled out theories which gave the Nazis a
green light.
At 14 I was barely aware of all this. Yet by the end of my two weeks with
the Ottings I had
a feeling that to this day remains hard to describe. I took this feeling
home to England,
where I promptly forgot it. It wasnÕt the sort of feeling you had there. I
didnÕt have it
during the war, which started the next year. I didnÕt have it when I
studied medicine,
emigrated to America, became an American citizen, and lived in New York
for 20 years. I
didnÕt have it in Canada, where I practiced psychiatry for 15 years. I
didnÕt have it when I
retired from practice and spent time in a Buddhist monastery.
On and off, I would read about Nazi Germany, but the feeling that I had
when I was briefly
in Nazi Germany as a child had gone.
In the fall of 1992 an ad appeared in the personal column of High Times
Magazine, sent in
by Brian Adams. Brian wrote that he was 18 years old, just out of high
school, when he
was arrested and sentenced to ten years of imprisonment for passing out
LSD to his friends.
If a High Times reader was interested in LSD sentencing methods, the
reader could write to
Brian and learn something.
I wrote to Brian, who introduced me to Tim Dean, who introduced me to
other LSD
prisoners and soon I was in the thick of a correspondence which has not
stopped growing.
In 1993 I began to visit Drug War prisoners in prison. I drove to the
Canadian border,
crossed into the United States, and talked with Pat Jordan in County Jail
in Nashville,
Tennessee. I drove to Michigan City to talk with Franklin Martz, sentenced
to 40 years in
the Indiana State Prison in that city. I drove to other prisons to speak
with Drug War
prisoners, paying attention to the information they provided. That started
my Drug War
education.
One day something happened. I realized that every time I left the
monastery and entered
the United States I was struck with a weird feeling that left as soon as I
re-entered Canada.
I couldnÕt put my finger on it, but it was as real as day. When the
meaning of this
realization dawned, it hit me like a ton of bricks. The feeling I had
acquired in Nazi
Germany and forgotten more than half a century before was back. My Drug
War education
had clicked in.
The feeling told me everything. The exponent of democracy had fallen on
hard times.
America was treading the same path as Nazi Germany. The War on Drugs and
HitlerÕs war
on anyone he took exception to -- the symptoms in the two cases were
identical.
One thing I had to accept was that I could not stay on in the monastery. I
could not sit back
and watch disaster unfold. I had to get out in the world and become an
activist, whatever
becoming an activist entailed. Even if no one else saw the War on Drugs in
the same light I
did, I had to do what might lie in my power to stop it.
I wonÕt go into what has happened since, except to mention a friendship
with Nora Callahan
and a tie to the November Coalition. It is a relief to know that others
share the perception
that historically we are in big trouble, without their having once
glimpsed life in Nazi
Germany.
Where it will end, no one can say. But there is reason for hope. In 1938
people in
Germany did not know the price they would soon pay for subscribing to Nazi
policy. We,
looking back, do know. With the benefit of hindsight and with concerted
effort we may still
halt the juggernaut, free Drug War prisoners, reverse an unsalutary
policy, and restore
meaning to the words "liberty and justice for all." If we donÕt, we will
have no one to blame
for the disaster that lies just around the corner but ourselves.
MAP posted-by: Don Beck >> Please, stop the D.A.R.E. program now, don't
let your child participate. We don't need another Hitler Youth program
destroying the fabric of family and community.

By JACK LONDON on Wednesday, May 19, 1999 - 09:54 pm:

Guido,

Congrats !
You pissed off that shitt-smoking punk.
I don't get pissed off about dementia frothings Jack-off. I pity them.

You really got his juices flowing.
Or maybe not.
Maybe it was just some bad weed.
I don't use "bad cannabis" redneck lover.

This is likely the most active his heart
has been since the '60s.
Well Jackoff your wrong again. I've been getting my juices flowing many times since then. Cannabis is still illegal moron. Then there was the Gulf fiasco, the Panama invasion, Kuwait again, Kosovo, Grenada. Many idiotic things to protest. But you fall in line so easily ypou probably have never protested anything, coward!

The state has been trying to get the bum
off his buttt for the last 20 years,
but he claims disability,
and stays home all day,
using his free time
in absolute freedom
to badmouth this freedom EARNED for him
by many men and women
who died even before reaching his age.
Wrong again bubba. I work a 72 hour week keeping seniors out of the government warehouses
punk. You low life boot licking scum.

The one thing worse than Serbian Soldiers
are Serbian Soldier Sympathizers.
People that use hard-earned freedom .... to badmouth
the country that protects and feeds them.
Jackoff kiss my ass like you do Klintoon and NATZO!

DdC -
this is not the sixties - man.
There is no room for hippies in this matter.
We are way back to the @#%$&! '40s
Can you comprehend this bubba. •••• YOU!

Guess who runs the concentration camps,
the deportation trains, mass graves and STATE TV?
Your SERB friends - that's who.
***NATZO loving idiot. Follow follow follow follow follow the yellow prick, toad!
and have a nice day.

Peace not WoD
FFFF
DdC

BOSNIA: HOW THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND MEDIA
HAVE FAILED AND MISLED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
==========================================

Special thanks to my "Chicago connection" for sending a videotape
of a public access program, "Broadsides", which was taped on June
6, 1995. Host is Mr. Sherman Skolnick of the Citizens' Committee
to Clean Up the Courts; co-host is Mr. Robert E. Cleveland, an
attorney and associate of Mr. Skolnick. Guests are James Nagle,
an attorney with the law firm of Querry & Harrow, Andrew B.
Spiegel, also an attorney, and Mike Pavlovic, a Serbian-American.

Pardon spelling errors. If you know the correct spellings, please
let me know.

Contact info: Andrew B. Spiegel, PO Box 396, Wheaton, IL 60187

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Hi. Thanks for watching "Broadsides". I'm Sherman Skolnick,
sitting in for our moderator, Cliff Kelley.

We have an interesting program this evening. It's about "Bosnia:
How the State Department and the Media Have Failed the American
People". And we have with us three gentlemen that have just come
back; they've been on a goodwill tour to promote peace in the
Bosnia area. We have James Nagle, a trial attorney with Querry &
Harrow in Wheaton; an International Law expert, Andrew B.
Spiegel; and Mr. Spiegel's client, Mike Pavlovic. And, as a guest
panelist, we have a Chicago lawyer, Robert E. Cleveland. And
we're gonna be discussing some things here that you probably will
not see on the media because, apparently, the media doesn't want
you to know this, and apparently the State Department doesn't
want you to know it. And *were* the American people to know more
about this (what we're gonna discuss in this program), probably
there would be peace in that area.

Why don't you start, Mr. Spiegel, and tell us about this letter
which you have, that you feel would've made peace, if Clinton
would have done something about it.


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well, Sherman, the letter you refer to is a letter dated April
22nd, 1995. It's a letter that President Radovan Karadzic [CN --
Please pardon the levity, but this may help you picture who
Karadzic is: my nickname for him is "hairdo".], the president of
the Republic of Srpska, wrote (with our assistance) after we met
with him in Pale [PALL-ay], which is the capital of the Republic
of Srpska. (The Republic of Srpska is the Serbian section of
Bosnia.)


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I think, Mr. Pavlovic, we can start with the history. I think
you're prepared to tell us about the history of this area from
about 1914 to 1980. And then Mr. Nagle will take it from there.


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
I can say that, 1914, we had start First World War, from
Sarajevo. At that time was assassination of Prince Ferdinand(?)
from Austria. And that time, before world war finished, we had
monarchs in Yugoslavia; they create country as Yugoslavia. We
create country from Slovenia, Croatia, and Serbia that time. And
what... From that time, we had monarch until 1941.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Was the arrangement of the boundary lines to promote peace over
that period, or not?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
*That* time is not. They had only, they created one country as,
called Yugoslavia.


ROBERT CLEVELAND:
That was created by the Versailles Treaty, is that not correct?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
That's true.

And then, after King Peter the First took over the country, that
was, at that time, monarchy of the, of Yugoslavia.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
During the Second World War, I understand that one of the
factions that lives in that area, the Croats, very much co-
operated with the Nazis. In fact, in some ways, they were more
brutal than the Nazis (if that's possible): the Ustashe(sp?). Can
you tell us a little bit about that?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
I can tell you one thing: that is, that time they create, in
Croatia... they work together, with Germany. They create a
special army they call Ustashe. And that time, Second World War,
they kill maybe 750,000 Serbs -- massacred -- in Serbia and
Croatia.


ROBERT CLEVELAND:
The Nazis had come in and took over the country; they conquered
it from the monarchy.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, the monarchy during that period brought a certain
amount of peace and tranquility to that region?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
That time was peace, all the time. But when start Second World
War, they start separating.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What about in the postwar period? I think some of us know there
was a "strong man" by the name of Tito [TEE-toe]. Can you tell us
a little bit about that?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
That time, it was 1941 that Tito came in power. And during that
time of war was several leaders in the Yugoslavia. That time was,
like General [Unclear] who save all those 750 American pilots. (I
hope this pilot we have right now... I hope is alive and safe.
[O'Grady, probably, during June 1995])


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So was there, in the postwar period, tranquility and peace,
because you had (more or less) a dictator by the name of Tito?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
Yes. There was, at that time, a communist system dictating all
the life until 1980.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well some claim that Tito wasn't *quite* within the Soviet bloc.
In other words, he was in some instances disagreeing with the
Moscow government. But it was similar, in other words.


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
Yugoslavia was independent communist system.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
And that brought us up to the period of 1980.


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
1980, yes. Up to 1980.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
And I think Mr. Nagle is prepared to tell us a little bit about
from 1980 until now.


JAMES NAGLE:
>From 1980 to 1991, Yugoslavia was a complex country, and there
was a saying used to describe this: it was, "One country, with
two alphabets, three religions, four main languages, five
nationalities, six republics, and it was bordered by seven
countries."


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Did they get along over the centuries? Or have they been killing
each other more or less repeatedly?


JAMES NAGLE:
What happened in 1980, Tito passed away. In 1990-91, Germany re-
unified. At that time, Croatia attempted to secede from
Yugoslavia. Germany was the first country to recognize Croatia.
At this time, Yugoslavia did not want one of its republics to
secede. So they called in the Yugoslav National Army in an
attempt to suppress the secession. But at that time, the
international community put pressure on Yugoslavia to back off.

The situation that gives rise to the current conflict is that
there are many Serbs who have lived in Croatia for thousands of
years who do *not* want to live under Croatian rule.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Why is that?


JAMES NAGLE:
In World War II there were between 750,000 and one-and-a-half
million Serbs that were killed in concentration camps...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
By the Ustashe?


JAMES NAGLE:
Well, in other words, Germany was occupying this portion of the
country, but the Croatians were Nazi sympathizers. In other
words, after World War II, when Tito came into power he wanted to
unify Yugoslavia. So he swept this genocide "under the carpet",
so to speak. You can imagine how the Jewish people would feel if
the Holocaust was swept "under the carpet". But now, at this time
[1990-91], Croatia's saying, "We're going to be our own country,
govern ourselves." And obviously, the Serbian people living in
Croatia do not want that to happen.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Fifty years after the war, would the Croatians that live in
Chicago disagree with this? If I, for one, raise the issue that
even fifty years after the war there still is -- oh, I don't know
-- a "pro-German" "pro-Nazi" twist to Croatia, is that fair? Or
is that unfair?


JAMES NAGLE:
I can only speak from what we saw happen. Obviously, Croatia
seceded at that time and Germany was the first country to
recognize Croatia. It's my personal opinion that, obviously, a
deal was made *before* Croatia seceded.

But it's the same conflict that we have in Bosnia-Hercegovina.
There are many Serbs that have lived in Bosnia for thousands of
years that don't want to live under Muslim rule. When Bosnia also
attempted to secede from Yugoslavia... the same situation. The
president of Bosnia wants to start, basically, a fundamentally
Islamic state, and have Serbs who are Eastern Orthodox that don't
want to live under Islamic rule.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In Chicago there are descendants of all these factions, right?
There's Moslems, there's Serbs, there's Croats -- all these
different factions live in the Chicago area. Am I correct?


JAMES NAGLE:
Yes.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Do they get along with one another? Or do they (unknown to the
rest of us) fight around?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
There's lots of good Croatian people, lots of good Moslem people,
lots of good Serbian people. But that time, the Second World War,
Ustashe was organization that was able to work together with
German Nazis.

I have a Croatian guy at work in my office, together with me.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So that makes it a little sensitive?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
It's not sensitive. We are very reasonable about talking about
what's going on; we don't want war. We want to stop killing.
That's very important. And I *know* that we can stop killing! And
*then*, we start negotiating.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So for that purpose, the three of you formed a goodwill mission
earlier this year [1995]. Tell us a little bit about it. What was
the idea behind it?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well Mike has been very concerned about the situation in
Yugoslavia, which was his homeland. He came up with the idea at
the beginning of this year that if the Serbs could live under a
system of government like we have in the United States, that
would help solve the problem. So he asked me to put together a
document that they could use to form this type of government. So
we put together a "declaration of independence agreement" that
was modelled on the Declaration of Independence of the United
States; we put together a constitution that was modelled on our
own Constitution, but taking out some of the defects in our
Constitution that has let the U.S. government get way out of
control -- at least in my opinion. And [Unclear] hand-carried
these documents to President Karadzic in Pale, which is the
capital of the Republic of Srpska. In January, he had invited us
to put together a delegation to consult with them in Pale about
their use of this declaration.

It's important for your audience to understand the legal
situation here. Yugoslavia was made up of six republics. It was a
violation of the Yugoslav Constitution for any republic to secede
from Yugoslavia. At the time, in 1991, Yugoslavia was a member of
the United Nations. *Three* of the six republics -- Slovenia,
Croatia, and Bosnia -- decided that they were going to secede, in
violation of the Yugoslav Constitution. In order to stop that,
the leader of Yugoslavia, President Milosovich(sp?), not unlike
our own President Lincoln, sent in the national army to stop them
from seceding from Yugoslavia.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Is that a quick and simplistic way of trying to understand a
complicated thing? That when one of the provinces, like the
southern states, tried to secede from the national government, it
caused the American Civil War? (At least that's what some people
think caused it.) Is that an uncomplicated way of trying to
understand what appears to be a civil war in Yugoslavia?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
That's only part of it. The second part of it is that the Serbs
living in Croatia and the Serbs living in Bosnia -- like the
Virginians living in West Virginia -- did not want it to secede
from Yugoslavia. So *they* seceded from the Republic of Croatia
and the Republic of Bosnia and set up their own independent
republic which was independent from *those* republics, but not
independent from Yugoslavia. So today, in fact, the constitutions
of Croina(sp?) (which is the Serb republic in Croatia) and the
Republic of Srpska (which is the Serb republic in Bosnia) -- it's
a violation of those constitutions for them to secede from
Yugoslavia!


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Bob, you've studied this thing. What's your take on what appears
to be a civil war over there?


ROBERT CLEVELAND:
Well it appears to be a matter of these people looking out for
their own problems and not being subject to outside interference.
For whatever reason that may be, certain European countries wish
to get in and interfere in the guise of "peacekeeping", when
there *is* no peace!


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Who's interfering? The Germans?


ROBERT CLEVELAND:
The Germans and the French... proclivity. And they're encouraging
us, the United States, to send armed forces over in the area.
They use the planes for the "fly over". They've done other things
there that...

Really, they're trying to influence decisions that could be done
internally, within the country.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So all these provinces are claiming a separate sovereignty and a
separate government? Do they all have separate governments,
separate taxing, separate everything?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well they do now. Slovenia is an independent country now. Croatia
is an independent country now. Bosnia is an independent country
now. Macedonia is an independent country. And the *new*
Yugoslavia, also called the "rump Yugoslavia" -- which is
comprised now of Serbian Montenegro -- is an independent country.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Mike, I think our viewers would like to know what do the people
over there subsist on? They're so busy killing each other; do
they manufacture anything to make money in the meantime? How do
they get all this money to buy arms, food and whatever they need?
Where does it come from?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
That's a good question. It's very hard to answer.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Do they manufacture anything over there?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
They don't manufacture nothing right now.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So on what do they subsist?


JAMES NAGLE:
Well what they subsist on... You have to understand: 90 percent
of the Republic of Srpska is agriculture. So they're self-
sustaining.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Tell our viewers what or how you organized by way of a peace
mission, a goodwill mission, or what. How did you go about it?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well, because we were trying to get them to form a democratic
form of government, I asked Jim Nagle to accompany me, who in
addition to being a trial lawyer is a constitutional law expert.
And I asked Mike Ginsberg(sp?), who is a senior buyer with United
Air Lines and is a businessman and familiar with free market
principles, to join the delegation so we could try and convince
President Karadzic that this is the type of government he should
have.

And ironically enough, when we sat down with him on Saturday,
April 22nd to discuss these issues, the first words out of his
mouth was that he wants to set up the very type of government
that we were trying to convince him to set up: a limited
government, with the private ownership of property, where
everybody has equal rights.

[Document shown on the screen.]

What we're looking at now is the April 22nd letter that we
convinced President Karadzic to fax to President Clinton, on
April 22nd. The most important portion of this letter is the last
paragraph, where Karadzic states: "What we are proposing,
therefore, is a permanent peace treaty to end the war completely,
and negotiations to resume at the same time under the auspices of
the international community."

President Karadzic was so impressed with what we had to tell him
that he called a special meeting of his cabinet for Sunday, April
23rd. This was 8 o'clock in the morning, on *their* Easter
Sunday. They took the time out to meet with us to discuss these
documents.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
That is the Eastern Orthodox Easter.


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Eastern Orthodox Easter.

And right from that meeting, they went to Eastern Orthodox
services, and we went to the front lines in Sarajevo.


ANDREW SPIEGEL [continues]:
What's happening now [June 1995] is, the U.N. wants to divide up
Bosnia, to separate Bosnia. To give the Serbs a portion of the
country, the Bosnians a portion of the country...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
On what legal basis? You're an expert in International Law. On
what basis is the U.N... I mean, did they pass something in the
General Assembly or the Security Council?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
They've passed numerous resolutions in the Security Council.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, dividing up somebody else's sovereignty. It would
be like the United Nations saying, "You know something? Come to
think of it, Indiana should merge with Illinois." I mean, what
right would the United Nations have to tell these people what
they should merge and un-merge?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well, they're trying to broker a peace. And the fact of the
matter now is that the Republic of Srpska controls 70 percent of
the territory of Bosnia. They control 70 percent not because they
invaded or they occupied it, but because the Serbs were farmers
and owned most of the land. The Muslims worked in the cities. So
they didn't *own* big tracts of land.

The Zepa area: the news media has told us that that was
"ethnically cleansed" -- that it was a *city* that was
"ethnically cleansed" by the Serb army. 40,000 Muslims, the news
media tell us...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
And that's a lie? That's a lie they're telling us?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
That's a lie: that 40,000 Muslims were forced out of the city of
Zepa. We went to the front lines. We saw Zepa. And it's not a
city, it's not even what they call a town. It's a tiny village.

The Zepa *area*: there are 4 or 5 Muslim villages. The total
Muslim population there, in those villages, today, is
approximately 6 thousand. And they're still living there!


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Mike, from your standpoint, what has the American media and the
American State Department done in failing the American people?
(Some of us go even one step further and say they have *lied* to
the American people.) But what is it that has happened?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
The biggest problem that we have with media in America and
American government: that they involve over there and they don't
want to solve the problem. *I* believe myself that we can solve
the problem without killing. Every day: killing and killing and
killing. We can stop this. And because of *that* reason, America
should negotiate. Sit around table with President Karadzic and we
come to some solution. I know one thing: when we want to make
some deal, we negotiate. And negotiate and negotiate.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Does *our* President Clinton want peace over there? Or let me put
it as a cynical question: do they need a war there to divert from
domestic problems? (Of which we can spend the whole hour talking
about *that*: Whitewater and the whole list, all the way to the
bottom.)


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
I don't think that they need that.


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
President Karadzic faxed this peace offer to President Clinton
April 22nd. There was no response. *I* faxed it to President
Clinton again on May 25th. There was no response. Jim talked to
the man at the Bosnia desk of the State Department -- when was
that? May 25th?


JAMES NAGLE:
This was the Friday before Memorial Day weekend. The news stories
were just coming back that the Serbs in Bosnia were holding U.N.
hostages. And I asked him if he was aware of the letter from
President Karadzic proposing a permanent peace. And I don't want
to say I was stonewalled, but the impression that *I* was left
with was that this individual was more in touch with getting home
for a picnic than he was with...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, the State Department and the White House did
not treat you like "semi-diplomats", like a "Jimmy Carter type"
that'd make peace over there. In other words, your peace mission
was not encouraged?


JAMES NAGLE:
Obviously Jimmy Carter is a former president of the United
States. We're just private citizens, going over there on our own
time, on our own dime, without being paid, to try to offer a
solution that hasn't been brought forth before to bring peace to
the area.


ROBERT CLEVELAND:
Let me ask a question that puzzles me: you helped President
Karadzic write this letter of April 22nd wherein he tells
President Clinton he wants peace. Is that right?


JAMES NAGLE:
Right.


ROBERT CLEVELAND:
And it was sent on that same day to President Clinton.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Which was a bad day. I'll tell you why. But go ahead.


ROBERT CLEVELAND:
Well, aside from that. Now you must know that, in my opinion,
there isn't anything that goes on in this country that the CIA or
some intelligence organization in this country knows about. And
if you were over there and you met with the president of this
country and he wrote such a letter -- did they ever ask you when
you came back about anything? Like a de-briefing or what happened
over there?


JAMES NAGLE:
No, we weren't ever de-briefed. And obviously, we met with the
president [of Srpska], we met with his cabinet, we met with the
leaders of the military. We sat down. We ate with these people.
We talked with them. And, if nothing else, I would at least
expect *someone* from the State Department to at least sit down
with us, to pick our brains to find out what these people were
like.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What's your explanation why there was no de-briefing? Nobody,
when you came back, asked you "what" or "when"?


JAMES NAGLE:
Not only did they not ask us...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Did you make some effort to contact these people?


JAMES NAGLE:
We made a substantial amount of effort. In fact...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What? You wrote or faxed the State Department and the White
House?


JAMES NAGLE:
Yeah. In fact, we faxed our complete story of our delegation to
Dave Merrick(sp?) of ABC News. (He's the Nightline reporter that
covers Bosnia.) We faxed it to his home and to his office.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
And what happened?


JAMES NAGLE:
No response.

We faxed it to CNN Live. No response.

We faxed it to WBBM: News Radio 78, Chicago. No response.

We faxed it to the Chicago Tribune, the reporter that wrote one
of the stories that was just in the paper about the Bosnian
crisis. No response.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
The only one that wrote about it was the suburban paper, the
Daily Herald. Right?


JAMES NAGLE:
The Daily Herald has covered it. The Palatine Countryside has
covered it. The Glen Ellyn News has covered it. The Quincy
Herald-Whig...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What explanation have you formed, from trying to deal with them:
faxing them, talking with them? What is your opinion as to why
they gave you the cold shoulder?


JAMES NAGLE:
My opinion is this: people at the State Department say Karadzic
has lied so many times before that we can't trust him. And my
response to that is, before we commit 25 thousand, 50 thousand
eighteen to nineteen-year-old boys over there, I think we owe it
to them and their families to at least go over there and address
the letter where he's discussing peace.

In terms of Karadzic "lying" to these people: I think that the
U.S. and other countries are under the mistaken impression that
Karadzic is a dictator. I think the U.S. government has dealt
with him and expected that he has the final say in everything.
But what they don't, maybe, not realize is that Karadzic has a
parliament, he has a vice-president, and that he does not have
the final say.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What about this theory that, at a time of recession in America,
there may be armaments business and the Balkans is as good of a
place to get rid of armaments as any: they're busy killing each
other. From a cynical standpoint, they use up a lot of guns,
bullets, bombs. And so American big business does not really
*want* peace there. Is that too cynical?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well since there's an arms embargo currently [June 1995] in
effect, technically there's no arms supplied by the United
States.

But just to go back to other people we've had contact with: I
faxed to [U.N.] Secretary-General Boutros Ghali(sp?) the letter
we sent to President Clinton -- the letter from President
Karadzic -- and the memo we sent to Dave Merrick of ABC
Nightline. That was done May 30th. No phone call, no fax, no even
acknowledgement [in response].

On June 1st there was a news report that Clinton was going to
introduce U.S. ground troops into Bosnia. At that point in time,
at least the thought was to either re-deploy the U.S. positions
or to help them evacuate. [Senator] Jesse Helms... Some of you
may recall that Jesse Helms said, "No U.S. troops into Bosnia on
my watch!" So I called up Jesse Helms' office, I talked to an
assistant, a Steve Beacon(?), told *him* about the letter of
April 22nd. He gave us the same type of response, that "President
Karadzic is a liar," that "We've dealt with him before and we
can't believe a word he says." I said, "Look. You may say that,
but that's the person you're gonna have to deal with to resolve
the situation." So I sent him a letter, and I pointed out to him
that to *not* deal with President Karadzic and to start a war
over there means that you're going to have to kill 1.9 million
Serbs, living in the Republic of Srpska, who are going to *die*
rather than surrender their homeland. And I don't think that the
United States is prepared to do that.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Let me point this out: We're taping this show on June 6th, '95,
and it won't go on the air for several weeks. By *that* time,
Heaven knows what happens. I mean we may, like Viet Nam, have
100,000 of our troops there... In other words, somebody may
create an incident that's good for the weapons business. I know
that's a cynical viewpoint, but the weapons business must be
considered. Somebody is doing a lot of business over there in the
Balkans. I mean, somebody recognizes the Balkans is some kind of
a boiling cauldron where, some way or another, some people like
to kill other people and this is a good place to ship a lot of
weapons. Is Germany shipping weapons there? I mean, who all is
shipping weapons there?


ROBERT CLEVELAND:
One thing that really puzzles me in this: President Clinton
ordered *our* planes to go in there and bomb certain parts of the
country, killing Serbians. *Killing* them! Now what did they do
in retaliation? They took hostages and didn't harm a one of them,
followed (further along) by returning some of the hostages -- in
fact, I think they let *all* of the peacekeeping force leave the
country without being harmed. Why would they want to do that?


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Maybe some kind of bargaining chip.

Nagle's got an explanation. Tell us.


JAMES NAGLE:
What people don't realize... We were there right before this
happened. And on May 1st (that was 3 days, 4 days after we left),
the Croatian army invaded the Serbian section of Croatia, killing
three- to four-thousand civilians. And what may have been in
response to that was to bomb the Serbs for allegedly violating a
12-mile zone of not having weapons. And obviously, the Serbs are
seeing that, thinking to themselves, "The U.N. is taking sides,
NATO is taking sides, with the Bosnians against us. Here we just
had 3,000 civilians killed, why don't they do something to
prevent that?"

How does the news media cover that? The news media reports that
the Serbs in Croina fired a couple rockets into Zagreb; ten
people were killed. Ten civilians were killed. They tell us
*nothing* about the 4,000 Serb civilians that were killed on
*one* *day*! On May 1st! And the Croatian army took over and
occupied 50 percent of the Republic of Croina.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So the news is slanted. Can you give any explanation *why* it is?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
I can give you the explanation that the Serbs, that many people
over there give. They believe that Arab oil money is behind the
Bosnian Muslim government, and that the Vatican is behind the
Croatian government. Now whether that's true or not, we don't
know.


ROBERT CLEVELAND:
I get the impression that there's definitely been an agenda or
game plan with the media in this country to wrongfully villify
the Serbs. Is that correct?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
That's correct. In fact, the analogy that I made was, the news
media is treating this like it is a professional wrestling match:
the Serbs are the "bad guys"; the Bosnians -- and the Croatians,
of all people! -- are the "good guys". And their reporting of it
is [similar] with a professional wrestling match.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
By the way, I made a cryptic remark before. The Serbian leader
there sent a message on April 22nd. He didn't know it, but it was
the *worst* possible time to send Clinton a message. Because it
was on *that* *day* (which I believe was a Saturday) that Clinton
and his wife were being questioned, in the White House, under
oath, by the Whitewater independent prosecutor. So I don't think
Clinton or the first lady were interested in peace in Serbia.
They had this other problem.


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well they could have responded on May 26th. They could have
responded on May 30th. They could have responded on June 1st.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What is the explanation that our president is changing his policy
like, ten times a minute? Why is this?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
I can say one thing. I'm not politician. My wife and I, we pray
every night: to stop killings. That President Clinton should
immediately stop killings, and negotiate around the table. He
should call President Karadzic to sit around the table and
negotiate and negotiate. What we pray every night.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
That's commendable. But you know, some Americans... I read the
papers every day and I thought I'm well-informed. But on this
Bosnia thing, it is so loaded with complications, I think most
Americans do not understand this.

The other thing is, some Americans raise the question: What *is*
the so-called "American interest" in the area? It appears to be a
long-smouldering, one-thousand year civil war. What is the
American interest to get involved? What are we doing there?


JAMES NAGLE:
I don't think there *is* any American interest. Obviously the
Europeans have an interest, if there's a war in their back yard.
*Maybe* there's an American interest from the standpoint that the
United States is fearful that this is a tinderbox and if it
spreads to Macedonia it might go down into Turkey and into
Greece; and at this point, we're looking at a much larger war.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What is our jurisdiction, what is our legality, of sticking *our*
nose into their civil war?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
If you want to look at it from a purely legalistic level, it was
a violation of the United Nation's charter for Germany and the
other European countries, and the United States, to interfere in
the domestic affairs of Yugoslavia. It was a domestic affair in
which certain constituent republics were illegally seceding from
that country. It would be as if, when the South seceded from the
United States -- what happened?


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well some claim that the British fomented that. [CN -- See, for
example, *The Empire of "The City"* by E.C. Knuth]


SHERMAN SKOLNICK [continues]:
By the way, some conspiracy theorists have published stories in
smaller magazines that Scowcroft, Eagleburger, and Kissinger (all
connected with Kissinger Associates; they're believed by some to
be an evil cabal), that they suddenly toppled the economic system
in Yugoslavia and that led to all this fighting. Do any of you
believe that there's some sort of validity to that kind of
conspiracy theory, whatever it is? In other words, that something
touched off this situation? What about that, Mike?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
It's very hard to answer that question. The death of Tito, maybe.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
But what about this theory that some American meddler, like
Kissinger, that he meddled in some way with their banking system,
toppled their banking system? Is that possible, that the toppling
of their banking system and then their currency going to pot led
to this situation where everybody over there wants to kill each
other?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
That's only speculation. I think it's much simpler than that. I
think Germany, obviously when it reunified in 1991, wanted to
have more influence in southern Europe. The easiest way to do
this would be to have their own country down there -- which was
Croatia. What happened, though, is people just didn't think
(including the State Department in the United States; At that
time, James Baker was Secretary of State.) as to how the Serbs
would react -- the Serbs *living* in Croatia, the Serbs *living*
in Bosnia -- once these countries effected to go through...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
The way you describe it, 50 years after the Second World War
there's a sinister undertone. It means that the Nazis are still
there. It's as if, "Hey. Croatia was with us in the Second World
War, with the Ustashe. They're still with us."


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Sherman, when Croatia became a so-called "independent country" it
adopted the same names and the same national symbols that it used
when it was a fascist republic years ago.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Really!? So on the screen here we should have shown what? The
Nazi flag of 50 years ago?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well they definitely use the Iron Cross.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well the Iron Cross... The Iron Guard was, in some published
accounts, more brutal. There's one published account that -- it
was terrible. I don't know. I suppose it's true: where they
plucked out people's eyeballs and put 'em in big pails and
carried 'em through the streets. What about that?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Before I get to that, there's one point that should be made here.
There are credible accounts that President Ysabegovich(sp?), the
current leader of Bosnia, was a member of the Hanta(sp?) Brigade
in World War II (which was a fascist youth troop).


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So they haven't all died. They're still around.


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
He's the leader of Bosnia now!


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Really!?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Yeah.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words...


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
One of the so-called "good guys".


JAMES NAGLE:
And I think the most ironic part of that story was that, this
year [1995], with the 50th celebration of victory in Europe...
And Ysabegovich was invited back to the ceremony.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Let me get this straight. So in their heart of hearts, in their
inner sanctum, they might buy onto some Hitler image, some Iron
Cross image, some Swastika? Is that credible?


JAMES NAGLE:
I don't know if that's credible. I think that this is the group
that he belonged in. It was the same situation with Kurt
Waldheim...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well if they were 20 years old at that time, they're not all
dead! They're still walking around. And in their heart of hearts
and their inner sanctum, they *might* conceive this Swastika and
the Iron Cross and the Ustashe. Some people believe that the
Ustashe idea exists today. Other people, in dark tones, say,
"Ustashe? There's a place in south Chicago where they still hang
out!" Is that all believable, Mike?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
They have an organization...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
They do!?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
I repeat: there's good people, there's bad people -- everywhere.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
But in the Chicago area there's, some people believe, Ustashe;
sort of remainders of the Hitler types?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
In Croatia, too. They have special troops that they call
"Ustashe".


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I tell you why I raise that question. Because in the '80s (some
people have forgotten), in the vicinity of 98th and Commercial
(which is south Chicago), there was bombings between Croatian and
certain factions. And there was quite a bit of commotion at the
time. And there was this undertone that this is the leftover from
Ustashe. Most people have forgotten about it.

So in other words, there's still sort of a Hitler theme, 50 years
after the war?


JAMES NAGLE:
I think that, for the most part, people all over the world are
the same: they want to raise their kids with a roof over their
head, and be able to walk to school without being killed. That
was the general tone of the people we met when we were over in
the Republic of Srpska. And I think that, for the most part,
they're no different from many Americans here. They want peace.
They've lived there for thousands of years. I still think we're
getting carried away when we start...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
But you came back here... You were on a peace mission, the three
of you. And at your own time and expense you went over there,
promoting "declaration of independence" and a constitution that
might have brought peace there. Why do all these talk shows, that
have got all this time -- why is it that none of them put you on
to discuss this at length!? We're apparently the first ones that
are putting you on to explain what has happened here! How do you
explain that?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
You're the number one talk show in Chicago, Sherman. [laughter]


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Oh, I don't know about that. They've got all these other
commercial windbags on.


ROBERT CLEVELAND:
Let's get back to something you were talking about. Because on
national television the last several days, there have been any
number of senators and congressmen asking, "Why? What is our
interest in this area?"


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Munitions! Armaments!


ROBERT CLEVELAND:
That hasn't been said. Is that unfair to say that?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well it's not in our interest so far, because the United States
(at least on the record) has not been supplying arms to anyone in
that conflict.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Would the three of you go back, on your own nickel, and try
again? You're not so discouraged at this point that you wouldn't
go a second time?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
I'd be more than happy to go back. And again, keeping in mind
that this is being taped on June 6th [1995], the word that we
have from Pale is that President Karadzic is right now willing to
release *all* the remaining U.N. soldiers, providing they sit
down with him and discuss the peace treaty that he wants to
negotiate and that they don't bomb him. Is that too much to ask?


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What is the slant in the media about these hostages?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
The media seems more concerned about the taking of the U.N.
soldiers, who are not being harmed by the Serbs, than they are by
the four thousand Serb civilians who were massacred by the
Croatian army! Why weren't NATO air strikes called on the
Croatian positions?


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So what are you saying? You're saying there's a symbolism: they
want the world to pay attention to what's happening. They says,
"Hey! We're not gonna harm these people but we're grabbing these
people to make a point that *our* viewpoint is not being *heard*
for some reason!" So now everybody says, "Why did you grab these
people? They've got the 'U.N. thing?'" Is that it?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
And the news media cannot afford -- going back to my wrestling
analogy -- they can't afford to portray the "bad guys" as the
"good guys"; they have to *stay* the "bad guys" to keep this
story...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So your view, as would-be peacemakers, is that there are bad guys
and good guys in that area, right?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
There are bad guys. There are good guys. And there are great
guys.


JAMES NAGLE:
To answer the question that you keep asking: "*Why* won't the
United States sit down and talk with Karadzic?" Their position at
this point [June 1995] is, they don't recognize him. Before Nixon
went to China, we didn't recognize China. Did that mean that
there were not a billion Chinese living over there?


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
This is not clear to a lot of Americans. *Who* does our State
Department, our government, recognize?


JAMES NAGLE:
They have been dealing with, at this point, Milosovich, who is
the leader of Yugoslavia, the former head of the Yugoslav
Communist Party. And *he* is the one that the U.S. recognizes.
And that's where our "declaration of independence" comes in...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Which one of them is accused of being a war criminal?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well, ironically enough, Milosovich was accused as a war criminal
*until* *they* *started* *negotiating* *with* *him*! They started
negotiating with him and suddenly he's not a war criminal, it's
just Karadzic and Miladich(sp?).


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, the one *you* went to negotiate with to try to
make a peace understanding, constitution and all that, is not
recognized. And he's not recognized, why? Because the State
Department doesn't take him seriously?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well, because for one thing, as far as I'm concerned, from an
international law basis, they have not declared themselves as an
independent country. If they are of the constituent republic of
Yugoslavia, then the person to talk to is Milosovich.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Under the Logan Act, no American citizen, private citizen, is
supposed to negotiate foreign policy. So you went over there,
negotiating foreign policy.


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Not only were we *not* negotiating foreign policy, but I think
it's clear even to the casual observer of the situation that
there *is* very little foreign policy of the United States.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
[laughs] There's no foreign policy, therefore they couldn't
violate the Logan Act because there isn't any foreign policy one
way or the other! Right? Is that fair?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
*I* think so.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So where do you think the thing is going? I mean, what is the
hopeful sign? We've seen all the bloodshed, plenty of it, on the
television: bodies, buildings bombed. What is the hopeful sign?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well, the hopeful sign is that the Republic of Srpska and
Republic of Croina will adopt the "declaration of independence",
adopt the "constitution", and create a democratic form of
constitutional government where people can live freely regardless
of race, religion or creed. And if they do that then, hopefully,
it will bring peace to that troubled area of the world.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well the point of the matter is that that area (you mentioned
about democracy and all that): Have they ever *had* democracy
there?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
They have a democratic form of government in the Republic of
Srpska now.

And before we run out of time, let me tell you that we have tapes
of the Croatian genocide in Bukovar(sp?) and the Croatian
genocide perpetrated against the Serbs from 1941 to 1990. And the
post office box has been flashed from time to time on the screen.
If people are interested in obtaining those tapes, they should
write there for further information. [Andrew B. Spiegel, PO Box
396, Wheaton, IL 60187]


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
You're on an educational mission, all three of you.


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Right.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
And all three of you would go back, to try again, even though
you've been rebuffed by the mainstream media...


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
I think that another point that should be made is that the
Bosnians have hired a public relations firm to handle their side
of the story. And they're just putting out all this information
that is pro-Bosnian -- which is *one* of the reasons why the news
media is so slanted.


ROBERT CLEVELAND:
Let me ask you this: When you went over there and were doing
these things *pro bono*, so to speak, for [their] government and
for [their] president, weren't you on their local TV and in their
local paper, their media? Didn't they play that up over there?


JAMES NAGLE:
We were on their local TV; we were on their local radio -- both
in the Republic of Srpska *and* in Yugoslavia.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So you were played up as heroes there. And you should have been
played up as peacemakers in the United States.


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Correct. When we left, I thought that we would get all kinds of
news media coverage.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So if the three of you wanted to smuggle into the country and
sell them some exotic weapons, you might have been better off;
you would have been accepted by the United States if you were
really three arms merchants.


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
The exotic piece of equipment that we tried to bring into the
Republic of Srpska was a popcorn maker, which...


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
That they wouldn't allow into the country!?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
...which the Hungarian border guards said was "a violation of
U.N. sanctions."


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
By what stretch of the imagination were they gonna turn it into a
weapon?


ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well, when we tried to convince them that this was humanitarian
relief, and not something that was covered by U.N. sanctions, we
were talking about Bill Clinton. And it turns out, we learned
later, we should have been talking about "Ben Franklin" [$100
bills] and how many of them we'd have to give them to let us
bring it through.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Let's ask our Serbian-American representative here, what do you
think? Is there peace possible in the area? Or are they going to
go on killing each other for another thousand years?


MIKE PAVLOVIC:
If we want to solve the problem, we can solve the problem.
Twenty-four hours. I know. I am sure. But America should *see*
*all* *sides*. They recognize only two sides and show on
television two sides. On the Serbian side, they never show
anything good -- only bad. Now, they must sit around the table
and work together, and negotiate. And I *know* that we can solve
the problem. We *stop* killing and negotiate. If we must
negotiate for ten years, we should negotiate for ten years. And
then, make economical war to be able... see how can economically
go forward. And then we build again, together.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I want to thank our three illustrious peacemakers. I hope you go
back there and make peace. I appreciate you came on our program.
And I thank everybody for watching "Broadsides". And call up your
local newsfakers and ask them why these three have not been
played up as heroes in their own country, the United States.

-

DdC

Pollution is not the solution.


See here how your contribution

is to assist with the distribution

of Serb truth-for-lies substitutions

... seek absolution.

DdCheech,

About the drug-war you're spearheading here,
it's a good thing.

But why not simply copy the Dutch model?
It works! French dicks don't like it,
but they can't fight it (and they tried)
because the Dutch slap the numbers in their face
and in the face of the US Government as well.

Soft drugs are available over-the-counter
in cities and towns in Holland
Amsterdam's coffie-shops are famous for it.

The drugs are not legal,
but if you have a joint but you need a light
ask the policeman on the corner
he'll light it for you.

They have specialty/novelty shops all over,
that sell all kinds of para
and bookstores specialized on the THC and co.
THE NUMBERS show that the Dutch have much less
of a drug problem than most other Euro countries,
certainly much less than the French who pretend to be so puritan.

I agree with you on your Drug-War,
But on the life-and-death issues in Kosovo,
we are VERY VERY apart.
On this I stand with the Governments of the Free World.

Subject: [PursuitOfSoul] Re: 1996 Bilderbergs Planned Kosovo War --> Armageddon?

From: Franklin Wayne Poley

I think this sums it up pretty well. We in North America have neither a
democracy nor a principled-constitutional republic. We have harlots called
Chretien and Clinton who dance to the tune of 4-500 billionaire clans on
the planet and sacrifice us, "we the people" aka peasant masses at their
pleasure.
FWP.

On Fri, 9 Apr 1999 @aol.com">ManBrad@aol.com wrote:

> From: @aol.com">ManBrad@aol.com
>
> Hello All,
>
> THE FOLLOWING new world order INTELLIGENCE UPDATE WAS WRITTEN ON MAY 16, 1998
> and refers to the 1996 and 1998 Bilderberg Meetings and Kosovo...
>
> (This is me speaking, btw, in these next three paragraphs.)
>
> The first time I ever heard the word "Kosovo" was over two years ago in these
> reports which forecast how the Bilderbergers hoped to bring about a
> debilitating war of attrition in the heart of Europe with tendrils eventually
> spreading towards Russia, Syria and Israel. No doubt, in the interim,
> Bilderberger agents provocateurs have been working full time on all sides to
> foment the present war. The following is about the 1998 Bilderberg-creep
> meeting with references to the 1996 meeting.
>
> These creeps are hoping this war will spread into Greece, Cyprus, Turkey,
> Bulgaria, RUSSIA, and finally, involve the US in their nwo malevolence.
> Lucifer must have some magnificent palaces all ready for these heroes of
> hell-creeps when they shed their mortal coils - and I do mean coils, as in
> snakes... Sky dragons? Dracs? And what is the traditional symbol of China?
> The dragon. Remember, Albania is and always has been a Red Chinese puppet
> and a drug conduit to the west via the KLA for drugs from China and SE Asia.
>
> Since what the nwo Intelligence Update's 1996 report said was going to happen
> has now come to pass in Kosovo in 1999, I re-read the following with great
> pause because of what it may foreshadow for the entire region (Greece and
> Turkey and Cyprus) and for Russia and the Middle East and the US. The
> Bilderberg-made storm clouds are gathering! I am so awestruck by the level
> of deceit and evil these nwo manipulators are into that I cannot say another
> word.
>
> Brad
>

---

> EXCERPT:
>
> "The Coming Kosovo War, Greece, Turkey, And Cyprus...
>
> "In our June, 1996, Special Report on the Bilderbergers, the New World
> Order Intelligence Update warned that the globalist elite had planned a
> Balkans war which would become the "Vietnam of the '90's"; and that, if
> they could not get such a war going by inflaming the Serbs through the
> use of NATO "snatch squads" to seize suspected war criminals for trial
> at the Hague, their plan was to use Kosovo as the flashpoint to ignite a
> regional conflict which would ultimately embroil the Yugoslav
> federation, Bosnia, Russia, Greece, Turkey, Albania, Macedonia, the
> Western European military powers, the United States, and by extension -
> as allies of Turkey and Greece - Israel and Syria. Now, from virtually
> nowhere, the well-financed Kosovan Liberation Army has sprung into the
> limelight and the scene is being set for a Balkan war of unbelievable
> carnage and merciless hostility.
>
> "We further warned that, if the war in Kosovo took too long to engineer
> or eluded the elite altogether, then their fall-back plan was to create
> a vicious conflict between Turkey and Greece over Cyprus, and to push
> the war back into the Balkans area from there."
>
>
> 1998 BILDERBERG MEETING ENDS
>
> WAR PLANNED ON CYPRUS IF KOSOVO CRISIS STALLED
>
> EUROPEAN-ATLANTIC UNION EYED AS NEXT STEP IN GLOBALISM
>
> TRUCULENT JAPAN CAUSING CONCERN REGARDING PLANNED ASIAN UNION
>
> [Copyright (c) 1998, New World Order Intelligence Update. This article
> may be reposted to Internet conferences and Web sites if unaltered and
> unedited. Prior permission to otherwise reprint or reproduce is
> required, and may be obtained by contacting John Whitley as detailed
> below.]
>
> CONTACT: John Whitley
> E-mail jwhitley@inforamp.net
> Phone 416-481 4868
> Fax: 416-322 3686
>
> TORONTO, 16th May, 1998
>
> The 1998 meeting of the secretive and immensely-powerful Bilderberg
> Group closes tomorrow at the luxurious Turnberry Hotel in Ayrshire,
> Scotland. The 120 or so Bilderbergers, who normally converge at their
> pre-selected venue with as much secrecy as possible, had hoped that
> their selection for the May 14th - 17th conference this year, 15 miles
> south of Ayr and a quarter of a mile away from the A77 trunk road to
> Glasgow, would - together with armed and black-clad police at the the
> property entrance and around the perimeter - guarantee their
> previously-inviolate privacy.
>
> They have still not recovered from the acute discomfort which they
> experienced when the TORONTO STAR and local Toronto media, acting on
> detailed Press Releases from the NEW WORLD ORDER INTELLIGENCE UPDATE
> [ http://www.inforamp.net/~jwhitley ], ran several major articles
> revealing their existence and querying, for the first time in their then
> 43-year history, the nature and purpose of their secretive conclave at a
> $66-million luxury resort property at King City, just north of Toronto
>
> Conrad Black, the most closely-watched media magnate in Canadian
> history, was the convener of that 1996 meeting, during which -
> exhibiting a new and disarming policy of openness - the Bilderbergers
> released a list of attendees and a highly-generalized and non-specific
> agenda. They tried the same proactive approach at their 1997 meeting in
> Georgia; but now, apparently, find the comfort of dark anonymity and of
> non-existent Press Releases to be more congenial to their purposes
> again.
>
> Well, unfortunately, much of their security effort has been wasted. For
> here once again, following the tradition of free publicity for the
> Bilderbergers which we first established at their 1996 meeting, are the
> substantive issues which they discussed at their secretive 1998
> Conference. Since the Bilderbergers make a point of never confirming or
> denying the substance of their discussions, we invite our readers to
> take note of the following items and to compare them with the contents
> of their newspapers over the forthcoming months.
>
> Our sources have shown an extraordinarily high degree of accuracy over
> the past several years, as those who have purchased our detailed
> Bilderberg Report can attest [see our Report web page at
> http://www.inforamp.net/~jwhitley/bild.htm].
>
> We need, for reasons which will quickly become obvious, to refresh our
> readers’ memories at this point.
>
> During and following the 1996 Bilderberg Conference, we asserted that
> Bilderberger Bill Clinton would be re-elected as U.S. president; that he
> would promptly break his promise to bring American troops home from
> Bosnia, but that he would re-position them in Hungary and the
> surrounding countries instead and pass command of the Bosnian operation
> to a German general and 3,000 German combat troops from Heidelberg [this
> later occurred, in October, 1996]; and that the Bilderbergers had
> thereafter arranged to inflame the Serbs by pursuing the war criminals
> in their midst for trial before a new International Court [the Serbs, a
> proud but experienced people, side-stepped this provocation by
> persuading the lower- and middle-level suspects to voluntarily
> surrender].
>
> If that failed to incite a Balkan war, then we pointed out that they
> were prepared to utilize Kosovo to bring one about:
>
> "When war comes, as expected, Kosovo, at the southern tip of the Serbian
> Republic, may be the flashpoint that ignites a wider war involving
> Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Russia, and Turkey - in addition to the
> hapless U.S. and NATO troops caught in the middle. Kosovo, "the
> Jerusalem of the Balkans", is a self-proclaimed nominally independent
> "republic", presided over by "President" Ibrahim Rugova. It is, in fact,
> a province of Serbia, though its population is largely of Albanian
> descent. The United States, though on record as recommending more "au-
> tonomy" for Kosovo, treats the province to all intents and purposes as a
> de facto independent state, a fact which infuriates the Serbians. Twice
> - once in 1992 and again in 1993 - Presidents of the United States have
> threatened Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic with military
> retribution "in the event of a conflict in Kosovo caused by Serbian
> action." To add insult to injury, the U.S. now plans to establish an
> "official presence" in "the capital of Kosovo." Aggrieved by this, and
> rightly sensing the intent of the United States to encircle and contain
> them, the Serbians are likely to appeal to an increasingly-nationalistic
> Russia, their traditional protectors, for help and military assistance.
> As reported by Germany's DIE ZEIT, "Serbia is every place where there
> are Serbian trenches or Serbian graves", according to Serbian opposition
> leader Val Draskovic. That means that Serbia will fight to retain
> Kovoso, in spite of the fact that its population is 90% Albanian. The
> Albanian Kosovans, determined to be independent, will fight back. That
> will likely draw into the conflict the 3.4 million inhabitants of
> Albania proper, together with the Albanians of Montenegro and Macedonia.
> Albania also has openly-expressed designs on Macedonia's western
> provinces, largely populated by Albanians: at least one armed
> insurrection directed by Albania has been foiled by the Macedonian
> authorities, and the Albanians continue to openly support and encourage
> Macedonian Albanian separatist groups. Bulgaria, which considers
> Macedonians to be "western Bulgarians", may then go to war for the
> fourth time this century to seize the opportunity to finally settle its
> territorial claim there. Greece, already incensed by Macedonia's use of
> the Greek "Vergina Sun" symbol on its flag and suspicious of the
> Macedonian Republic's supposed intention to form a "Greater Macedonia"
> by inciting insurrection and separation in the Greek province of
> Macedonia, may well then take advantage of events to settle the issue
> once and for all. Turkey, acting in defence of its Muslim brethren in
> Bosnia, and infuriated by the actions of its traditional rival Greece
> against the Macedonian Republic, could then scarcely be refrained from
> joining the fray.
>
> The "Albanian issue", centred in Kosovo and overshadowed by the larger
> Serb-Bosnian tensions, is a powderkeg waiting to explode. And when it
> does, the whole region will explode with it."
> - from our 1996 BILDERBERGER REPORT [almost three years later, these
> things are now happening!]
>
> The Serbs, scenting the trap thus laid for them, have confined
> themselves to short, repressive police actions against the Kosovan
> Albanian population, none of which have been sufficient in duration,
> extent or intensity to provide the pretext necessary for the
> Bilderberger elite to rally Western European and American public support
> for a full-fledged military engagement of the Serbs. So their methodical
> preparation, financing and arming of the newly-revealed Kosovan
> Liberation Army has so far provided the Bilderbergers with no dividends
> at all...and the clock is running on their schedule. They need this war,
> and they need it soon.
>
> The third fall-back plan, we reported in 1996, was the creation of a war
> between Greece and Turkey on Cyprus which they could then push back into
> the Balkans.
>
> It was this third option which occupied the Bilderbergers at their 1998
> meeting.
>
> Russia has contracted, through its Rosvooruzheniye arms export agency,
> to deliver a sizeable number of S300PMU-1 [SA-10D] surface-to-air
> missiles to the Greek-Cypriots, a move which will irrevokably
> destabilize the current delicate balance of power between Turkey and
> Greece over Cyprus and which will demand an immediate and overwhelming
> Turkish military response. Originally slated for installation during
> September or October of this year, their delivery has been abruptly and
> unexpectedly moved up to August. The Greek-Cypriot parliament, which has
> characterized the $400 million dollar anti-aircraft missile deal as a
> purely "defensive" move, recently unanimously approved a 1998 defence
> budget to cover their costs. The Russians have repeatedly refused to
> "reconsider" their sale, and are expected to rebuff the pleas of Turkish
> military Chief of Staff Ismail Hakki Karadayi that they again do so
> during his forthcoming trip to Moscow this month. The Greek Defense
> Minister, Akis Tsohazopoulos, defended in April the Greek-Cypriots
> "right" to deploy these weapons. The Turks have steadfastly warned that
> they will immediately take them out via a sudden and overwhelming air
> strike, together with the batteries of MM40 Exocet surface-to-surface
> anti-ship missiles with which the Greek-Cypriots have tried to fortify
> the south-western Cypriot port of Paphos. None of these sides are like
> to back down, much to the satisfaction of the Bilderbergers. War on
> Cyprus is therefore a certainty in late summer or autumn, unless the
> Bilderbergers manage to ignite their Kosovan war earlier - in which case
> the Cyprus "crisis" will be quietly settled by diplomatic means.
> [UPDATE: Turkish Chief of General Staff General Ismail Karadayi
> commenced his five-day visit to Moscow on Monday, May 19th, three days
> after the first Internet posting of this article. He is expected to make
> clear to his Russian equivalent, General Anatoly Kvashnin, and to
> Marshall Igor Sergeyev, the Russian Defence Minister, that if Russia
> goes ahead as planned with its mid-August delivery of S300 missiles to
> the Greek-Cypriots then it can forget about sharing in or winning
> Turkey's international invitation to tender for the supply of 145 attack
> helicopters (a contract worth $3.5 billion) and an even more lucrative
> (US$4.5 billion) contract to provide the Turkish army with
> latest-technology main battle tanks. The Russians would be naturally
> happy to sell Turkey a few squadrons of their Ka-50 and Ka-52
> helicopters, which they've eagerly promoted to the Turks, if they could.
> He is also likely to point out in a robust and soldierly fashion that
> Russia could further improve its chances by closing down the Kurdish PKK
> terrorist training bases it currently "permits" to operate on its
> territory. The Russians, as usual, are playing both sides deftly: last
> month they warmly welcomed Greek Defence Minister Akis Tzhatzopulos.
> Since they have a much larger strategic game in motion now, and are
> already a major supplier of tanks and other miltary equipment to the
> Greek-Cypriots, they are likely to merely smile politely, offer General
> Karadayi more coffee, forgo those Turkish military contracts, and finish
> crating up the S300 missiles which they've already determined to send to
> Cyprus. And where else, after all, could they set two NATO allies at
> each other's throats, and get paid for the privilege of doing it?]
>
> Greek Foreign Minister Theodore Pangalos has stated that deployment of
> the S300 missiles on Cyprus would be "unnecessary" if the parties agreed
> to "a flight exclusion zone" over the island, a proposal which - though
> quickly embraced by the Americans - is utterly unacceptable to the
> Turks. Greece, on the other hand, flatly rejects the American attempt to
> bring about a "comprehensive peace settlement" between Greece and Turkey
> by linking the Cyprus issue with the settlement of a long-running
> dispute between the two nations concerning sovereignty over a number of
> Aegean islands claimed by both countries. [NOTE: A knowledgeable Greek
> correspondent has just drawn our attention to the vast pool of oil which
> is reported to underlie the relatively shallow Aegean, and has suggested
> that this may in fact be the primary reason why the U.S. is furthering a
> "peace" policy in the region that actually increases the chances of war
> between Turkey and Greece: such a conflict might well then give the
> Bilderbergers an excuse to garrison the disputed area with UN
> "peacekeepers" and thus ensure their ultimate control over the e
> xpoitation of this treasure-trove. If so, that would certainly explain
> why Holbrooke is busy upsetting the Greeks and Greek-Cypriots, why the
> U.S. is still busily feeding weapons to both sides, and why Bilderberger
> Bill Clinton is so eager to link the Cyprus issue with an Aegean
> settlement] The U.S., which is the major supplier of arms to both Greece
> and Turkey, is just about to offer Turkey a US$43 million deal for 30
> Harpoon surface-to-surface missiles even as it offers the Greeks 248
> Hellfire anti-tank missiles worth US$24 million.
>
> Following the 1974 attempts by the then-ruling Greek junta to forcibly
> unify Cyprus with Greece in fulfilment of General Grivas' original dream
> of "Enosis", the Turkish government moved swiftly to protect the
> Turkish-Cypriot community, which numbers just under 20% of the
> population of Cyprus. An autonomous Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus
> was hastily established, garrisoned by 30,000 Turkish troops and
> occupying approximately one-third of the island, which continues in
> diplomatically-unrecognized legal limbo to this day. The British, whose
> responsibility under the London agreements which settled Cyprus'
> independence from Britain was to prevent any such action, sat unmoving
> on their sovereign bases on the island, and will do so again. They and
> the Americans were reportedly active in "encouraging" the Turkish
> invasion which divided the island: the British, who have long memories,
> had not forgotten the atrocities committed against their forces by
> General Grivas nor the stream of virulently anti-British propaganda
> which had poured out from Radio Athens in his support, an activity
> doubly offensive to the British because of their own prompt and costly
> military intervention on the Greek mainland some years earlier which had
> saved Greece from an attempted communist takeover. The British also
> suspected, with good reason, that their sovereign bases in Cyprus would
> be promptly converted to NATO bases in the event of union of the island
> with Greece, and that they would be politely shown the door.
>
> The Greek-Cypriot militia and the Greek regular army brigade stationed
> on the island will likely be overwhelmed by superior Turkish military
> forces within a matter of days in the case of war, with little hope of
> reinforcement through the then-devastated port of Paphos and with
> virtually complete air superiority over the island held by Turkey, whose
> aircraft take literally minutes to reach Cyprus from their Turkish air
> bases and are able therefore to strafe, attack or loiter for long
> periods. Greek aircraft would be forced to fly from Rhodes, a 500
> kilometer flight in each direction, which would leave them precious
> little time for dog-fighting, military interdiction, or the provision of
> air cover for Greek-Cypriot forces in Cyprus.
>
> Any naval attempt by Greece to reinforce its military units on Cyprus
> must therefore also run a gauntlet of continous Turkish air and naval
> attacks, with the prospect of dauntingly heavy losses.
>
> Though the Turks are already closely scrutinizing Russian ships passing
> through the Dardanelles straits, it is unlikely that they would risk
> Russian wrath by seeking to interdict or impound any missiles thus found
> while they were being transported under the protection of the Russian
> flag. The only remaining option, therefore, would be to strike them hard
> as soon as they were landed at Paphos and before they were dispersed and
> set up. As soon as they are activated, the Turks not only lose their
> advantage in air superiority over the island but also their present
> relatively-unchallenged freedom to attack Cyprus-bound Greek naval
> convoys. Indeed, the S300's 150-kilometer range would also effectively
> give the Greek-Cypriots air superiority over the two neighbouring
> mainland Turkish air force bases once they were successfully activated.
>
> Given the near-certainty of an overwhelming Turkish military success on
> Cyprus, the U.S. State Department has already covered itself with the
> Greeks by publicly blaming the Turks for the crisis; true to form, it
> has also covered itself with Ankara by being careful not to specify
> which Turks it had in mind, those on the mainland or those on Cyprus.
>
> Does this all sound too incredible to be true? Well, apart from the
> warnings in our June, 1996, Bilderberg Report, we also posted - well
> before the recent Bilderberg meeting - the following warning on our Web
> site [at http://www.inforamp.net/~jwhitley/WEBAD1.HTM]:
>
>
> The Coming Kosovo War, Greece, Turkey, And Cyprus...
>
> In our June, 1996, Special Report on the Bilderbergers, the New World
> Order Intelligence Update warned that the globalist elite had planned a
> Balkans war which would become the "Vietnam of the '90's"; and that, if
> they could not get such a war going by inflaming the Serbs through the
> use of NATO "snatch squads" to seize suspected war criminals for trial
> at the Hague, their plan was to use Kosovo as the flashpoint to ignite a
> regional conflict which would ultimately embroil the Yugoslav
> federation, Bosnia, Russia, Greece, Turkey, Albania, Macedonia, the
> Western European military powers, the United States, and by extension -
> as allies of Turkey and Greece - Israel and Syria. Now, from virtually
> nowhere, the well-financed Kosovan Liberation Army has sprung into the
> limelight and the scene is being set for a Balkan war of unbelievable
> carnage and merciless hostility.
> We further warned that, if the war in Kosovo took too long to engineer
> or eluded the elite altogether, then their fall-back plan was to create
> a vicious conflict between Turkey and Greece over Cyprus, and to push
> the war back into the Balkans area from there. Now, with the delivery of
> Russian missiles to the Greek-Cypriots moved up to August of this year,
> we expect sudden, overwhelming Turkish air strikes upon that island late
> this summer if the Kosovo conflict is in fact delayed by Serbian
> political dexterity.
>
> This is not a good summer to plan to be vacationing on any of the Greek
> islands, especially those in the Agean and the disputed island of Cyprus
> - unless, that is, you feel the need to exercise your adrenaline glands
> by ducking hot shrapnel, trying to stay away from ports, roads, bridges,
> installations, and buildings that the Turkish air force might
> legitimately consider to be military targets, and trying desperately to
> find some means of getting off a crowded island which has suddenly
> become a big bulls-eye for loitering Turkish strike aircraft. Forget
> about getting help from the Greek air force if you're on Cyprus -
> they'll barely be able to carry enough fuel to reach the island, make
> one pass, and return safely to their mainland bases!
>
> And it's certainly not a good summer to be visiting northern Greece or
> the Balkans as a tourist!
>
> The Turks will relish the opportunity this provides them with to avenge
> themselves upon Greece for constantly blocking their European Union
> membership applications, for openly harbouring an office of the
> terrorist PKK in Athens, for Greece's support for a Kurdish state in
> Turkey, and for what they perceive to be the calculated insults, hatred,
> and bile toward Turkey spewed out by Greek Foreign Minister Theodoros
> Pangalos [a Bilderberger] virtually every day. We don't anticipate,
> therefore, that Turkish pilots will be too discriminating as they hit
> their targets, and, if tourists get in the way....well, they'll say,
> unfortunately, "that's war!"
>
> If you were a subscriber to The New World Order Intelligence Update,
> you'd have known about these threatened conflicts over two years before
> the regular media began to mention them - and you'd have learned well
> ahead of time about the elite's plans for massive social, political,
> economic, and governmental change as they prepare to bring in "global
> governance" and their promised "New World Order" in the year 2000. You'd
> also have had time to arrange your affairs, protect your assets, and
> decide where - and how - to live in order to maximize your freedom and
> independence!
> Note two key items almost buried in this concise alert.
>
> Theodoros Pangalos, the Greek Foreign Minister, attended the 1996
> Bilderberg Conference in Toronto, Canada, and it appears to us that his
> policy of publicly insulting and offending the Turks really commenced in
> earnest from that date. Was he told at that Conference that the
> exascerbation of tensions between the two nations by such regular and
> uncouth utterances would be one of his primary future responsibilities?
>
>
> And Greece is allied with Syria. We understand from various sources that
> the Greeks may well have made emergency arrangements to launch F16
> military air sorties from Syrian air bases in the event that the Turks
> succeed in taking out the Cypriot S300 missile installations in a
> devastating first strike. The existence of this alliance infuriates
> Turkey, which has its own serious differences with Syria. It exists
> partly as a Syrian response to Turkey's own alliance with Israel, on
> whose notable and successful experience with aerial "first strikes"
> Turkey will probably be drawing heavily. This refinement of the conflict
> no doubt further delights the Bilderbergers since it not only pits an
> Orthodox Christian and a technically-secular but Muslim state against
> each other, but also draws in by default the Arabs and the Israelis in
> opposing supporting roles. Greece [along with Russia] would thereafter
> be quick to offer aid and support to its fellow-Orthodox Serbian
> neighbours in the event of a Kosovan conflict, whilst Turkey [along with
> the Arab states] would be equally prompt in supporting the Kovosan
> muslims and moslem Albania in such an eventually. And the Bilderbergers
> would finally have their rapidly-spreading, long-lasting Balkans war.
> [UPDATE: In a deadly twist in, and refinement of, their current
> Byzantine game in the Middle East, the New World Order Intelligence
> Update learned on May 19th that the Russians were on the brink of
> signing a $300 million-plus deal to supply S300 missiles to the Syrians
> also. Once installed, they will negate Israeli air superiority in the
> region in exactly the same way that their installation on Cyprus will do
> with regard to the Turks. Russian Deputy Prime Minister Victor
> Posuvalyuk will face concern and criticism on the part of Israeli
> officials as he commences a working visit to Israel on May 18th, but it
> is unlikely that the Russians will be moved by this. The Russians and
> Syrians set up a joint "security and defence" committee last January in
> Damascus, and the Russians intend to fulfil this contract for their own
> purposes as soon as the Syrians can obtain financing for the deal from
> the Saudis or from another oil-rich and sympathetic Arab state. Israel,
> a nation which depends heavily on the tactical superiority of its small
> but highly-trained air force, will then have two choices: to strike
> these missiles as soon as they arrive and before they are activated, and
> thus risk a wider Arab-Israeli conflict; or to persuade the Turks, in
> defence of their own tactical freedoms and local air space, as willing
> proxies, to do the job for them]
>
> A dangerous volatility is added to this mix by the fact that Turkey's
> generals, who are the major power in that country, are simmering with
> fury at repeated Greek "provocations" and are incensed that their
> attempts to reinforce Turkey's secular and Western orientation have been
> undermined by the latest refusal of the European Union to admit them
> into full membership [a slight they attribute almost wholly to Greece's
> influence], and by the fact that Greek politicians, a notoriously
> corrupt class, are only to willing to excite war scares with Turkey in
> order to divert domestic attention from their own economic mismanagement
> and general ineptness.
>
> To ensure the conflict's deadly and rapid spread, discussions are
> already underway concerning the posting of a small and hapless force of
> NATO troops on the border between the Yugoslav Federation and Albania,
> ostensibly to prevent Albanian gun-running into Kosovo. This will hardly
> impede the steady flow of weapons coming through that rugged terrain,
> but it will succeed in firmly postioning the NATO troops in the enemy
> camp as far as the Kosovan Liberation Army is concerned, since it will
> appear to have no other practical purpose than to assist the Serbs. It
> is therefore inevitable that, first, sporadic firefights and, then,
> full-scale conflict will occur between the KLA and these unfortunate
> NATO troopers. The fact that the Serbs have now also quietly instituted
> an effective blockade at the internal Serbian-Kosovan border, turning
> back hundreds of trucks carrying foodstuffs and the basic necessities of
> life and causing severe shortages in Kosovo and Metohija - an on-going
> policy which they publicly deny - will not sweeten Kovosan tempers when
> they see NATO troops enforcing what will clearly be a blockade of
> another type on their border with Albania. [NOTE: on May 17th, the day
> after we sent out this article over the Internet, Prime Minister Jean
> Chretien, on a visit to Ljubliana, Slovenia, offered to post Canadian
> troops on the Kosovo-Albanian border "if the United Nations asked us to
> participate." Chretien, an attendee at the 1996 Bilderberg meeting and
> whose Ottawa political "handler" is long-time senior Trilateralist
> Mitchell Sharp, made the offer after flying in from the G8 meeting in
> Birmingham, England, for a "lightning quick" meeting with Slovenian
> Prime Minister Janez Drnovsek. To provide the appropriate "cover" for
> this quick conspiratorial huddle, he will then continue on to visit
> Canada's 1,200 troops in Bosnia and to announce that Canada will be
> keeping them in place well after their current mandate expires on July
> 1st of this year. A deliberative Bilderberg discussion in Ayr, Scotland;
> a fast call to the G8 meeting in Birmingham, England; a quick flight by
> an obedient Prime Minister to Slovenia; and...voila! - NATO troops will
> soon be emplaced "in harm's way" on the border of Kosovo and Albania The
> Bilderbergers certainly don't let grass grow under their feet - when
> they want something done, it's done!]
>
> And what will Greece gain from cooperating in what seems to be, for her,
> a foregone disaster? Our sources indicate that Greece may have been
> promised the opportunity, in the event of a wider Balkans war, to seize
> and hold the neighbouring area of Northern Epirus, or "southern
> Albania", a territory with a large local population of Greek extraction
> which has long been coveted by Greece. Such an exchange would more than
> reconcile the Greeks to an apparent Turkish "victory" over Cyprus and
> cause the "insiders" in their government to do everything in their power
> to bring such a wider conflict about. [NOTE: There is no doubt that the
> Greeks would have the military muscle to pull this off: in the latest
> (Spring, 1998) edition of NATO QUARTERLY, Greece, alone among the 16
> NATO countries, has increased the size of its military (by 20,000 over a
> 14-year period, to its current level of 206,000) and maintained its
> spending on military equipment (at approximately 20% of its budget);
> Turkey, by comparison, has 820,000 military personnel and spends 36% of
> its budget on military hardware. Following the 1996 clash between Greece
> and Turkey over Imia, a tiny island in the Agean, Greece commenced a
> US$13 billion arms-purchase program: the two countries have almost come
> to open warfare twice since 1967, and the Greeks no doubt expect the
> worst concerning Cyprus. It might be virtually impossible to get troops,
> armour, field guns, and reinforcements to Cyprus in the coming conflict,
> but they'd be conveniently to hand and waiting if the opportunity arose
> to employ them in southern Albania]
>
> Our readers can therefore understand with what interest we learned from
> our own sources of a secretive meeting during this year's Bilderberg
> Conference between the Turkish Foreign Minister Ismail Cam, Richard
> Holbrooke [U.S. special presidential envoy to Cyprus], and Sir David
> Hannay [the British representative to Cyprus]. Greek Foreign Minister
> Pangalos, as already mentioned, was present for briefing at the 1996
> Conference, and his attendance was therefore not required this year. We
> leave our readers to draw their own conclusions as to the content of
> these concealed discussions, and do no more than to remind them to watch
> their newspapers for the next act in this deadly game of Bilderberg
> political theatre. [UPDATE: the Greeks are now displaying increasing
> distrust of American efforts to "mediate" in the Cyprus impasse. On May
> 18th, the Anatolia news agency reported that Greek Defence Minister Akis
> Tsohatsopoulos, who had just met in Thessalonika with Greek-Cypriot
> Defence Minister Iannakis Omiru, said, "We should be suspicious if we
> take into account the history of Cyprus and the roles and attitudes of
> the mediators in the past." Holbrooke caused deep offense to both Greeks
> and Greek-Cypriots recently by refusing to acknowledge the Greek-Cypriot
> head of state as "President", referring to him repeatedly instead as
> "Mr." He also abruptly reversed the previous American position by
> publicly affirming that the authority of the Greek-Cypriot
> administration does not extend over the approximately one-third of the
> island now occupied by the Turkish-Cypriots and garrisoned by Turkish
> troops. The Greeks would have had even more reason to be suspicious had
> they realized that the British and Americans are deeply concerned about
> the positioning of Russian S300 missiles in Cyprus (and soon, also,
> Syria), but for a different reason from that of the Turks: the radar
> array which accompanies these missiles is so powerful that it can detect
> any aerial movement throughout the entire region. It is sensitive enough
> to "paint" and track aircraft up to 200 miles away, which would permit
> it to fully cover a great swathe of strategically-sensitive air space
> stretching deep inland from Turkey right down to Egypt. Since it is very
> likely that Russian specialists will be delegated to operate this
> sophisticated equipment, this means that intelligence on British and
> American aerial activities in the Mediterranean and the Gulf would be
> probably promptly be fed back to Moscow and from thence to Russia's
> favorite rogue states in the region, Iraq, Syria, Iran, and Libya. Its
> ability to fully penetrate and monitor Israeli air space would also deny
> Israel much of the element of surprise which has
> cloaked its own previous "first strike" successes. In addition, both the
> British and Americans make intensive use of the Royal Air Force's huge
> Akrotiri base on Cyprus for Middle Eastern, Gulf, and other operations;
> the Americans find it particularly useful as a secure forward base from
> which they can operate clandestine U2 surveillance and other sensitive
> flights. Since neither the Americans nor the British are in a position
> to eliminate the latent threat thus posed by the tracking capabilities
> of these missile batteries in Cyprus, they'd be only too happy to help
> create the circumstances under which the Turks could do it for them. And
> then again, as equally necessary, later, in Syria]
>
> Other topics on the agenda at this year's meeting included:
> •the Asian economic, social and political crisis, with particular
> attention being paid to Japan. The Bilderbergers have patiently pursued
> a long-term strategy of melding each of the three major areas of the
> world into trading, monetary, and then politically-united blocs. They
> have virtually completed this process in Europe; they are currently
> embarking upon it in the Western Hemisphere; and they are now preparing
> the East Asian nations for the same process. The economies of these
> countries were first destroyed then looted by a skilfull combination of
> abundant, easy Western banking credit and loans, abruptly cut off,
> coupled with devastating speculative raids upon the region's currencies
> by, among others, Bilderberg financier George Soros. This strategy
> appears to have been finally implemented just following the 1996
> Bilderberg Conference, which Soros attended. The ultimate goal is to
> group these dispirited and slowly-recovering nations in a common trading
> and monetary union under the leadership of Japan, which is why the
> Bilderbergers are monitoring the Japanese economic situation with such
> interest. There is also the minor matter of the US$600 billion
> US-Japanese "financial arrangement" which we will not elaborate on
> further at this point but which must be giving some American
> Bilderbergers, including President Clinton, sleepless nights!
> •The U.S. stock market speculative bubble. An abrupt collapse could have
> devastating consequences far beyond American shores, and this is a topic
> of particular and alarming concern to the already economically-unstable
> Japanese, who have recently repeatedly expressed their worries about it
> at such private conferences.
> •The development of a new "transatlantic marketplace", a
> guilelessly-homespun way of describing The New Atlantic Initiative,
> which is Stage Two in the Bilderberger's plans to begin incrementally
> knitting together the three global regional blocs, which they are
> currently in the process of assembling, into one truly global trading,
> monetary and political union. Both the European Commission and, scant
> days ago, President Clinton, have urged that the European-U.S. US$500
> billion annual trading exchanges be "enhanced" by a deepening of
> "relationships" in other areas of common interest, including threats to
> peace and common security. Largely due to sustained opposition by
> France, Sir Leon Brittan's proposal on March 11th of this year of just
> such a "New Transatlantic Marketplace" was torpedoed at the E.U. Council
> Ministers' meeting on April 27th, and the contentious nature of the
> topic caused "Bilderberger Bill" Clinton [who owes his own job as
> president to the approval of the Bilderbergers, gathered in conclave at
> their 1991 Baden-Baden, Germany, meeting] to be gingerly non-specific in
> lauding this new approach during his recent speech to business leaders
> in Berlin. But, since this is a Bilderberger project, you can be assured
> that it won't remain on the back-burner or imprecise for very much
> longer.[As an Addendum: Bilderbergers Blair and Clinton, together with
> the EU's Jacques Santer, approved the New Transatlantic Economic
> Partnership (a slightly-revised and cosmetically-renamed version of the
> New Transatlantic Marketplace which, as reported above, the French
> successfully torpedoed recently) at the May 18th EU-US Summit, two days
> after this article was originally posted to the Internet and one day
> after the end of the Bilderberg conference. The Bilderbergers are
> certainly getting impatient - they need to have the structure for global
> governance in place for the year 2000! Unfortunately, they're saddled
> with Bill Clinton, a president who is unable to deliver the essential
> free trade "fast track" authority from Congress which they need to begin
> consolidating the nations of North, South and Central America into their
> projected Western Hemispheric Union, and Clinton is obviously eager to
> redeem himself by delivering to the Bilderbergers the framework for a
> future Transatlatic Union instead. Don Corleone Clinton revealed that
> this "Partnership" would begin by dismantling " trade barriers, both
> bilateral and multilateral trade barriers, in areas such as
> manufacturing services and agriculture, about a dozen in all, while
> maintaing the highest standards of labour and environment." Sure: we
> especially believe the last part! With consummate skill, the
> Bilderbergers have made use of the European Union Commission to announce
> this, and thus avoided the possibilty of any democratic discussion or
> resistance in the European Parliament or the parliaments of the EU's
> constituent nations. No one can accuse the Bilderbergers of not being
> sufficently devious!]
> •The extension of the EMU to Eastern Europe, and the early entry of
> Britain into this common European currency system following intensive
> propagandizing of her population under the benign supervision of
> "Bilderberger Blair" [British Prime Minister Tony Blair was promised his
> current job at the 1993 Athens Bilderberg Conference, which he
> attended].
> •NATO expansion, and its political and monetary advantages [through the
> re-equipping of formerly East Bloc armies with NATO-standard equipment]
> to the Bilderbergers.
> •Though not on their own agenda, the assembled Bilderbergers would have
> no doubt been delighted to learn that, even as they prepared to meet,
> another subject dear to their hearts, that of global taxation, had been
> officially tabled on May 13th at the 32nd General Assembly of the
> Interamerican Centre For Tax Administration in Sao Paulo, Brazil, by
> Vito Tanzt, a taxation specialist and director of the IMF. He reportedly
> proposed that a World Taxing Organization be brought into existence
> within 10 years with, among other things, the power to levy a "20% tax
> at the source" of any international financial transfers. Coupled with
> Canadian Finance Minister Paul Martin's recent public recommendations
> that the IMF be given more power over individual national economies,
> these two "suggestions" are a giant step toward the goal of complete
> financial control and hegemony expressed in the globalist elite's plan
> for world government by the year 2000, "OUR GLOBAL NEIGHBOURHOOD: The
> Report Of The Commission On Global Governance." The plutocratic hearts
> of the Bilderbergers must have beat just a little faster at such
> wonderful news.
> Also present at this year's Conference were the usual roster of
> Bilderberg cabal heavyweights plus some fresh faces: David Rockefeller,
> Conrad Black, Henry Kissinger, Kenneth Clarke, Giovanni Agnelli, William
> Hague, Javier Solana, George Robertson, etc.
>
> Apart from a brief article in THE SCOTSMAN which, through no fault of
> their own, was long on supposition and short on specifics, the
> Bilderbergers managed to restore the almost complete Press blackout
> which had prevailed up to their 1996 meeting, when the New World Order
> Intelligence Update encouraged them to involuntarily reform their ways.
> Since they appear to have slipped back into their old bad habits once
> again, we're happy to give them a little nudge again this year. After
> all, people who work so hard on our behalf deserve a modicum of public
> recognition and credit.
>
> Copies of the series of 1996 New World Order Intelligence Update Press
> Releases on the Toronto Bilderberg Conference can be readily seen,
> downloaded or printed off on our Web site at
> http://www.inforamp.net/~jwhitley/bildpres.htm.
>
>

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Komandant Trece Armije Vojske Jugoslavije General-pukovnik Nebojsa Pavkovic izjavio je da ce NATO, ukoliko zapocne kopnenu invaziju na Kosovo, pretrpeti ogromne gubitke u ljudstvu, a da NATO vojnike u Jugoslaviji ceka "pakao na zemlji".

Ddc, I like how you make them look ridiculous, but did you notice that this guy you're responding to lives in Amsterdam, a city devoured by drugs, they be lethal or soft, featuring prostitutes in the windows. You can tell by the way he writes that he takes pride in this city. I have lived in areas where my dog regularly cut his paws and muzzle on used syringes. Years later he died of heart problems caused by a failing nerve hit badly over the years following several infections of various origins. It could have been kids, or anything.

So do we want all our cities to look like Amsterdam ? Yes to the bicicles and some cute canals, no to unrestricted use of any kind of drugs, because there will always be some Jack Londons to push them at my kids outside school.

I don't want some religious fanatic and his sect followers to do anything to my loved ones. These guys are the most dangerous individuals as they roam about unchecked and hassle our children into selling their lethal substances. No to drugs, no to dealers. Sorry this is a bit out of the Kosovo scope, although without drugs there would be no KLA, without KLA there would be no Albanian refugee-wannabe turkeys.

By JACK LONDON on Wednesday, May 19, 1999 - 10:38 pm:

DdC

"Pollution is not the solution.
See here how your contribution
is to assist with the distribution
of Serb truth-for-lies substitutions
... seek absolution. "

See now how this pathetic creep
Gets his rhyming going so deep
He believes he has been honoured
To be the Grand Priest on this board

Some big vision he must have had
For hatred has made him so mad
That he was then found to defend
The killers with mysterious end

This evil man is so stubborn
One Wonders should he have been born ?
He wishes these millions to die
He believes a humongous lie

Lies are well spread and flyers fall
London knows it, he wrote them all
Let us now bomb and torch their train
So Serbs will die in fear and pain

Prisons and hospitals are hit
NATO should lie a little bit
People are maimed and don't know why
Let's give the raids another try

No way out of this Balkan mess
Refugees we could not care less
Our troops must enter Kosovo
Without hurting even a toe

Our weapons companies and trusts
fly high, the army is a must
The Dow is at an all-time high
Who cares if Kosovars do sigh ?

The spooks are crawling everywhere
They're first in line in case of scare
Blaming old maps was too easy
Who would prove what, they're all sleazy

Reds went ape at Embassy stuff
Did they not see it was a bluff ?
The world is ours let's enjoy it
No Sovier bear can now ruin it

Hail to Democracy ! We win !
Free speech is on if we agree
Government is acceptable
As long as it has our label

Bring the pizza, eat the burgers
Here comes us now Bilderbergers
Contracts by us will be promised
To companies allowed to bid

For our people no indictment
It's in Rambouillet document
They will rape, kill, if they need to
The G8 make sure of that too

Tcherno is now jet-lagged for sure
He tries so hard the Serbs to lure
Into some kind of proposal
Déjà vu, this could be fatal

Killing NATO is our last chance
To stand for true justice and peace
Anything short of such a stance
Would be with Hell a long term lease.

Nicolas

To DdC, Jack

Right on Jack! The Dutch solution, my thoughts exactly! Nick the frog surely doesn't agree with that, but I feel really safer on the streets in Amsterdam, than on the streets in Paris!

The hookers are really friendly ladies, btw, working hard for a living, taking a big burden off society's back: rapists on the loose! (Probably Nick has never seen the gigantic red light district in Paris.... DUH)

If I have to choose between talking to a drukard an talking to someone smoking pot, I will imidiately choose the latter! Canabis doesn't make you agressive, like alcohol does, nor makes you delliriuos, like alcohol does. If you look at Nicks an Sergeys and Basils amd Majas postings you can almost smell the wine and the vodka, and the Slivoic, and everybody can see the agression.

So: my solution: No war on SoftDrugs, WAR ON ALCOHOL!!

Zoja

ps Emina came in, read my posting and said she agrees totally, So, the above counts from the both of us!

To Maja.

Child, really, learn to read. The posting were not Emina's. She only put a few there, signed EMINA Can you spell that? Ask your school teacher, she will ecplain..

Kiddo, you were born yesterday. That is why your posings are so naive and full of crap. The ideas of Seselj were copied by Slob Milo and his friends, and therefore copied by you. It really tells me a lot about your person, to read from your posting that you deny taking over the view from Seselj.

Drop the nightly drinking session in which you post your messages, dear. When the clouds go, your view will be much clearer!

Zoja.

Nick (Nique)

N.T.M.

Nique ton mere.