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(@L'menexe)
Honorable Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 616
November 23, 1999 9:21 pm  

TGSB
well, ah dont know as if i recall it that way, or whether i've shown up in yr archival research yet.
but the "conflict" here didnt seem to me like h'niq was being 'torn apart' by those who disagreed w/him. it was more like he was bluto. seemed like a comparatively even tussle.
going back to the start of the unwar of '99, this was a trendy place to be for some passers-through, who said a lot of stupid things.
if the 'nick' of april is the h'niq when i showed up, a radical transformation took place, or something.
i'm very confused about a lot of things i've heard from many sources, here and elsewhere. this quantification of slaughter going on here is pretty grotesque. "oh heck, we didnt kill =that= many, so this one doesnt count".
but did the quote ethnic cleansing, nazi-style systematic slaughter go down as hammered by the western media? how much of a lie could such a statement be? it was obvious right away that the NATO bombing was way out of line. is anything better now that this country has been destroyed?
no, there is no balanced discussion here now. the general viewpoint is nigh-180 degrees different. zero tolerance for dissenting opinions. or maybe you dont get enough dissent anymore to begin with.

h'niq must be pleased.
not my idea of a role model. or a victim.

i've had a miserable year, personally, and this big, big mountain of lies and bombs and corpses and accusations i never fail to encounter here...just makes me numb.


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 adam
(@adam)
Active Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 14
November 24, 1999 1:06 am  

Dear Daniela,

'Nalini', the famous sentence has 'KosovO', not 'KosovA' - that is how Albanians would only write it...

Not quite, I am British and I only say or write Kosova.


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(@daniela)
Reputable Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 333
November 24, 1999 10:31 am  

Go on Adam, elaborate on the subject; I am all eyes to read your wise thoughts.
And I'll post 'your' british article - try to find KosovA written in it...



Armed Albanians take revenge with campaign of murder, house-burning and intimidation that has driven out thousands

Serbs murdered by the hundred since 'liberation'

By Robert Fisk in Pristina

The Independent, 24 November 1999

The postwar "ethnic cleansing" of Kosovo's Serbs appears to be nearing completion as armed Albanians continue to murder and
kidnap the tiny minority of Serbs who remain in the province more than five months after Nato troops arrived – in the words of their
UN mandate – "to ensure public safety and order".

Of Pristina's 40,000 Serb population, only 400 are left. Statistics from the Serb church and a human rights group in Pristina suggest
as many as 316 Serbs have been murdered and 455 more kidnapped, many of them killed, since Nato's arrival.

If these figures bear any relation to reality – and most are accompanied by names and dates – then the number of Serbs killed in the
five months since the war comes close to that of Albanians murdered by Serbs in the five months before Nato began its
bombardment in March. Most Serb victims died in the first two months after Nato's entry, but house-burning and murder continues.

One of the most recent deaths was that of a Serb restaurant worker employed – by a supreme irony – at the Pristina office of the
International War Crimes Tribunal. The murder of Radovan Kukalj in his home town of Obilic on 29 October went almost unreported
outside Kosovo.

Statistics compiled by the Nato-led K-For in Kosovo appear to be woefully inaccurate. They give the number of Serbs murdered since
mid-June as only 125, despite detailed lists from the Serb Orthodox Diocese of Raska and Prizren that include at least 184 named
Serbs as murder victims, and 104 more kidnapped between 13 June and 22 August alone.

Files at the Serbian-administered "Centre for Peace and Tolerance' in Pristina – which includes Albanian victims in its statistics – say
that at least 48 Albanians as well as 455 Serbs have been kidnapped since mid-June.

But even if the true figure was closer to K-For's statistic, not one of the brutal Serb killings is being investigated by members of the
International War Crimes Tribunal working in Kosovo, not even the death of their own worker, Mr Kukalj.

For while tribunal investigators still hope to bring charges against the murderers of Albanians killed before the war, they are
prevented by the tribunal's mandate from any detective work on the postwar murder of Serbs. The mandate states that it can
investigate crimes committed "during the armed conflict in Kosovo".

But since neither Nato nor K-For will admit that a conflict continues under their control in Kosovo, albeit a largely one-sided one in
which the Serbs are the principal victims, war crimes tribunal officials cannot investigate the killing of Serbs. This means their
murderers have only the largely impotent UN police force to reckon with. No wonder, then, that minority groups continue to flee
Kosovo.

The 300-strong Croat community at Lecnice were preparing to celebrate their 700th anniversary in the province but left en masse
last month for Dubrovnik. And this week, the president of the tiny Jewish community in Pristina, Cedra Prlincevic, left for Belgrade
after denouncing "a pogrom against the non-Albanian population". He had left Kosovo, he said, "with only the Talmud".

Foreign aid workers in Kosovo insist K-For is now making a huge effort to protect minorities after Nato General Sir Michael Jackson's
defeatist response to the killings – "we can only do so much," he said several times – appeared to encourage the killers.

"There are large numbers of Royal Irish Rangers in the Gjilane and Stimle areas trying to defend the small number of Serbs there," a
European human rights worker said. "Just east of Pec, Serbs are returning from Montenegro at the rate of 40 a week and K-For is
putting enormous resources in to re-establish them."

Swedish troops have virtually surrounded the Serb monastery town of Gracanica, even ordering Albanians to strip Kosovo
independence posters from their cars if they are driving in the Serb streets.

But the same aid official, who spends much of his time on emergency work in Pristina, admitted: "Every single Serbian here has been
intimidated – verbally in the street, on the telephone, physically ..."

A few hours later, I was confronted by a 64-year old Serb woman, Milunka Josic, who had just spent the night trying to keep
Albanian youths from breaking down her front door. Her right hand was covered in bruises. "I know the young men who were shouting
at me," she said. "They were beating on the door and screaming, '**** your mother' and, 'Go back to Serbia'."

In efforts to minimise the "ethnic cleansing" of the Serbs of Kosovo, K-For has even produced graphs which compare the province
favourably to cities which include Pretoria and Moscow, a meaningless performance since these are among the crime capitals of the
world. But OSCE human rights teams working with the UN police force, say they are investigating "an increasing number of murders,
attacks and harassment of elderly Serbs".

An OSCE official reports that in Zupa, a 96-year-old Serb man was found bound and gagged with a gunshot wound to the head. In
Kamenica, a Serb woman, 82, who had been ordered to leave her house was burnt to death in her home.

Earlier, Serbs reported that a 90-year-old woman, Ljubica Vujovic, had been held down in her bathtub and drowned. Elderly Kosovo
Albanians also complain that Albanian families burnt out of their original homes by Serbs are trying to evict them. Witnesses, say the
OSCE, are too fearful to help the UN and K-For investigate these crimes.

Amid this anarchy, the question has to be asked: can the shameful campaign of "ethnic cleansing" and murder of Serbs that
continues under K-For's eyes still be explained away as revenge attacks, as retaliation for the mass atrocities committed against
Albanians by Serb forces before and during the Kosovo war?

A growing number of Albanian intellectuals, including several courageous journalists on the daily Koha Ditore newspaper, fear that the
murders and dispossession of Serbs are now being organised. By who? By KLA cells that never disbanded under K-For orders? By
groups coming across the border from Albania?

Serbs, of course, still remember a British minister saying in the Kosovo war that he wanted "Serbs out, Nato in, refugees back".
George Robertson, as Secretary of State for Defence, later claimed this was merely a "distillation" of the G8 demands. But "Serbs
Out" has almost been accomplished. Lord Robertson of Port Ellen is now head of Nato.


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(@daniela)
Reputable Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 333
November 24, 1999 10:55 am  

Kosovo Rebels Make Own Laws
U.N. Accuses Group of Illegal Evictions, Tax Collections
By R. Jeffrey Smith
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, November 24, 1999; Page A01

UROSEVAC, Yugoslavia, Nov. 23—Nasir Hajdari was summoned to the door of his third-floor apartment late last month here in the
town where President Clinton today hailed the progress Kosovo has made toward a return to normal life. Outside were three men who
identified themselves as employees of the provisional Kosovo government run by Hashim Thaqi, political leader of the now-disbanded
Kosovo Liberation Army.

The three had a message for the ethnic Albanian family: Hajdari and his wife and three children were no longer entitled to live in that
flat; they had to vacate the premises to make room for new occupants selected by Thaqi's rebel-led government.

In recent days, the message has been heard with growing frequency by Kosovo's Albanians as well as its Serbs. Despite the U.N.
administration here, Thaqi's government of former soldiers has declared itself the sole arbiter of which citizens have a right to
preferred accommodations in the freezing temperatures that have descended on this Serbian province.

Such actions are illegal, according to U.N. officials charged with administering Kosovo's recovery and implanting a democratic system
under the protection of a 40,000-member international peacekeeping force. Lt. Col. Michael Ellerbe, commander of U.S. peacekeeping
forces in Urosevac, said his troops arrest people carrying out such evictions with growing frequency.

Despite the arrests--and the lack of any effort by rebel leaders to hide their actions--top U.N. officials say the evictions have largely
occurred without their knowledge. But the evictions are part of what U.N. police officers and NATO officials in four of Kosovo's major
urban centers describe as growing evidence of government-organized illegal activities by former rebel fighters in Kosovo.

Former KLA guerrillas were among the ethnic Albanians who moved quickly after the war ended in June to push out Kosovo Serbs and
take their property. The difference now, the officials say, is that former KLA fighters have been organized into groups that intimidate
Serbs and ethnic Albanians alike to appropriate apartments, collect fees or gain access to rent money from the flats.

The KLA officially ceased to exist two months ago, under an agreement its leaders reached with NATO. But some of its leaders,
including Thaqi, run an unofficial ethnic Albanian government that operates alongside the United Nations and openly prepares for the
day when Kosovo is independent in law as well as in fact. Meanwhile, more than 10,000 former KLA members have been issued new
identity cards signifying their application for 5,000 slots in a successor organization approved by NATO and called the Kosovo
Protection Corps.

U.N. police and NATO soldiers have seized hundreds of identity cards from former KLA troopers at crime scenes in the past four
months, said a U.N. police official. Although some cards have been found to be forged, another U.N. official following the rise of crime
said most of his colleagues believe the former rebels "are systematically threatening people, evicting people . . . [and] trying to
collect illegal taxes."

For example, the 1,300 or so trucks passing the Macedonian border every day for months have been routinely forced to pay a
customs duty of $20 apiece to agents of the Thaqi government, despite claims by the U.N. administration that it must be the sole
recipient of public revenues in Kosovo, according to police and former KLA officials.

Thaqi's aides deny that any such taxes still are being collected by his government. But documents recently seized in Urosevac show
a businessman was ordered to pay $400 in taxes two weeks ago and that the government has established an elaborate sliding scale
of illegal taxes for cigarettes, alcohol, juices, coffee and gasoline.

Some Western officials say such fees sometimes may be collected with an implicit threat of force. In the Serb enclave of Globocica,
for example, a Muslim Slav complained to Western human rights monitors early this month that his shop was blown up after he
refused to pay a registration fee to the government. No conclusions were reached in that case.

But Western officials say they have confirmed complaints from ethnic Albanians, Roma and Serbs in the cities of Prizren, Pristina and
Djakovica that they have been threatened with violence or even kidnapped to force their withdrawals from apartments by men who
identified themselves as police in Thaqi's Ministry of Public Order, according to police reports.

Rexhep Selimi, 28, a former soldier whom Thaqi appointed to head the ministry in July, acknowledges that some evictions have
occurred but denies they are unfair. He said in an interview that he knows the group's actions are not legal, but says they are
nonetheless "morally" justified by the urgent need to allocate scarce housing to the most worthy citizens, including people living in
tents, former KLA fighters and their families.

Selimi said the Public Order ministry has 1,500 members--who receive average salaries of $225 a month--whom he hopes will form
the nucleus of a new ethnic Albanian police force under U.N. supervision.

He said the ethnic Albanian government has stepped into a vacuum left by the United Nations, which he said is administering the
province "like this is just a movie, more like acting than real work." He acknowledged that if occupants of a targeted flat refuse a
"suggestion" to leave, then "we escort them out." If they resist, he said, "we are the ex-KLA and we know how to deal with these
cases."

Selimi and other former KLA fighters say they consider it reasonable to give housing priority to the families of soldiers or to needy
former KLA fighters--particularly since some ethnic Albanian civilians unjustifiably seized more than one flat during a massive postwar
scramble for living space. To accomplish their work, he said, the ministry's police are amassing a comprehensive
apartment-by-apartment tally of who lives where, where they are from, whether they own their flat and whether they have KLA
permission to stay.

Selimi said the housing reallocations have been finished at the village level and now focus on urban centers. Ministry documents
indicate that 64 apartments were handed out in Urosevac during a 15-day period ending Oct. 1.

Although the work is ostensibly overseen by special municipal commissions, these are controlled by ex-KLA officials under the
supervision of Thaqi, who is aware of the eviction effort, several officials said.

NATO troops seized one eviction notice, for example, that ordered a flat in Urosevac be given to someone wounded in the war; it
was signed by Shukri Buja, a former KLA regional commander slated for a top job in the Kosovo Protection Corps.

But Dennis McNamara, the U.N. official responsible for humanitarian issues, said only U.N. administrators have "the authority to make
those adjudications." He added that a list of priorities including former KLA fighters is "not a list I would be part of," because the
United Nations' aim is to find homes for the "most vulnerable"--those who cannot rebuild their homes, households headed by women,
the elderly and the sick.

Ellerbe and other U.S. troops say their aim is to block actions by organizations attempting to usurp U.N. authority and to enforce a
form of "squatters rights" through the winter until a U.N. commission on property ownership can begin to function. The commission
was formed a few days ago.

In the Hajdari case, the family says it took over the flat after their house was burned in the war. After they complained, U.S. soldiers
arrested three men at the Public Order Ministry on charges of illegal intimidation and put them in the brig at nearby Camp Bondsteel.
But top officials at the camp later asked that no more such suspects be sent there.

A spokesman for General Agim Ceku, new commander of the Kosovo Protection Corps, said "the real members" of that group had no
role in evictions or any criminal activities. "For the KPC, the life and the property of every citizen of Kosovo is sacred, and it is our
firm conviction that whoever acts against the life and the property of the other should be treated as a criminal," the group said in a
statement several weeks ago.

© Copyright 1999 The Washington Post Company


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 adam
(@adam)
Active Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 14
November 24, 1999 2:41 pm  

The NATO presence in Kosova is critical. This is the only insurance that the indigineous population has, to prevent a reoccurence of Serbian genocide.


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(@daniela)
Reputable Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 333
November 24, 1999 5:33 pm  

http://www.emperors-clothes.com/


Spanish Experts Shoot NATO in
its Logic

Comments concerning the Spanish forensic scientists who were sent
to Kosovo by NATO to find evidence of Serbian genocide, and didn't.

by Jared Israel (revised 10-7-99)

I've been reading mass grave stories in the New York Times for
most of a day. I hope to write a detailed analysis soon, but
meanwhile, here are a few observations:

* You would expect these stories to be horrifying. What is surprising
is that they are so repetitious - using the same phrases - that reading
them is exhausting.

* The articles are often written in semi-fictional style, as in "A cap
lay on the ground, stained bright red. 'Who would believe the Serbs
would do this?' asked the gaunt Albanian. A tear trickled down the
old man's cheek." This kind of writing encourages the reader to
suspend disbelief, as one does when reading a short story, to accept
emotionally charged statements as true.

* Evidence, if any, is anecdotal; sources are vague.

* The discovery or even the rumor of a grave is cited (often in a
press conference by some authority figure) as proof of Serbian
atrocities.

These 'atrocities' are discussed in great, though entirely speculative,
detail. Trial by media. It is enough to make you gaga, especially
when you read such 'news' for hours at a time. The mental equivalent
of smog.

The arguments made here are circular. The supposed mass grave is
discovered. The newspaper or TV reporter, or the authority figure
giving the press conference, takes as a starting point the assumption
that Serbs are genocidal murderers and proceeds from there. The
grave has not been opened, or perhaps it has been opened but the
only evidence is a few scraps of clothing. Nevertheless we are told
that dead bodies will be found; the bodies will be Albanians; they
will be civilians; they will have been killed by Serbs; the Serbs will
have been soldiers or policemen. The reporter does not probe, does
not investigate, does not test these speculations against fact and
nobody complains because the speculations are not presented as
speculations. Once uttered, they have the authority of Revealed
Truth. They become part of the Record, to be cited in later news
reports as Proven Fact."

Report of Spanish Experts Contradicts
NATO

Recently, a group of Spanish forensic scientists and policemen
specializing in war crimes were sent to Northern Kosovo. Upon their
return they held a press conference. This press conference, was, as
far as I know, ignored by all Western media except for one article in
the moderate Spanish magazine, El Pais, (see:
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/news/sp-news.htm ). Apparently the
Spanish experts came to conclusions unacceptable to NATO; hence
the media blackout.

The Spanish experts say they were told they'd be performing 2000
autopsies; in fact they were shown only 187 bodies, less than 10%.
About half these people had died when NATO bombed the Dubrava
prison in Istok, in Kosovo. (Based on autopsies, the Spaniards
concluded that most of the people who died at the prison were killed
by shrapnel; some were shot trying to escape after the bombing.)
The war crime involved here is NATO's: it is a war crime to bomb
any nonmilitary target, let alone a prison, the ultimate sitting duck.

Let me linger here for a moment. One would imagine NATO leaders
were aware they had ordered the bombing of the prison in Istok. In
case they had some doubt, they could have consulted one of many
newspaper accounts:

ALLIES KILL HUNDRED IN AIR RAID ON
'STAGING POST' PRISON

At least 100 people were killed and 200 injured in NATO
attacks on a prison in Kosovo... All buildings of Dubrava
prison were destroyed and the bodies were still lying in
the prison's courtyard...An investigating judge from Pec,
Mr. Vladan Bojic, accused NATO of committing the
most massive murder of prisoners in modern civilization
and confirmed an investigation had began.

…The Serb Media Centre said Mr. Bojic himself was
slightly injured in a second raid on the prison on
Sunday….NATO said an attack did take place on the
prison. It said the target was legitimate because the
grounds were being used as a barracks and staging area
by Serbian special police accused of atrocities against
ethnic Albanians...

Military spokesman Col. Konrad Freytag said the
building in Istok had been shown on the military
planners' target list as a disused prison. (Birmingham
Post, May 25, 1999)

Were NATO leaders surprised that their bombs killed people?
Wasn't that the purpose of bombing the prison? If the term 'war
crime' has any meaning, this was a war crime.

So then why, may I ask, were the Spanish forensic scientists told to
look for evidence of Serbian war crimes at Istok? Given that NATO
had publicly admitted bombing the prison, why weren't the Spanish
scientists told to look for NATO war crimes? Why was it necessary
for the Spaniards to hold a press conference to reveal the
STARTLING news that when NATO bombs a prison, the Serbs are
not to blame?

And yet it was necessary. And not merely necessary - heroic. The
Spanish scientists and policemen are correctly perceived as heroes
for publicly testifying that when NATO bombs a Serbian prison it
does not constitute a Serbian war crime. Doesn't this tell us
something about the surrealistic state of international relations in the
New World Order?

Down 95%

The Spanish forensic scientists speculate that the remaining
cadavers are Albanian civilians killed by Serbian troops or police. If
their speculation is correct, these people could be victims of Serbian
war crimes. That's less than 100 people, about 5% of the promised
2000.

In considering this 5%, I suggest we adopt a cautious approach.

"Impressions"

Every official in a NATO country is under pressure to parrot the
NATO line. Nevertheless these Spanish experts aired their
reservations publicly. Note that when they discussed the individuals
with bullet wounds they made clear they were speculating:

"It gives the IMPRESSION that the Serbs gave a
choice to the families to leave their homes. If some
member of the clan, for whatever reason, decided to
remain, upon returning they were found dead."

Of course, one can only get the "impression" that these people were
shot by "the Serbs" for refusing to leave their homes if one accepts
that they were members of families whom "the Serbs" had ordered
to leave. But how could the scientists know this? They could only
'know it' from witnesses.

The El Pais story says nothing about witnesses, so now we must
speculate; fortunately we do know a few things.

First, Kosovo is under a reign of terror by the Kosovo Liberation
Army, with NATO's blessing. At the end of this commentary we list a
few articles documenting that reign of terror, including first hand
accounts. (See note 1 at end)

Second, both NATO and the KLA have a strong interest in proving
that the Serbian government had a policy of genocide against
Albanians. NATO needs to prove this because the existence of
Serbian genocide was NATO's justification for bombing Yugoslavia
for 78 days. The KLA needs to prove it because Serbian genocide is
the KLA's justification for driving Serbs and "Gypsies" out of
Kosovo. As Clinton adviser Sandy Berger put it, speaking for NATO
and the KLA:

"All across Kosovo, we see reminders that America and our
allies did the right thing in taking a stand against ethnic
cleansing…. The Serb forces responsible for the violence are
gone…But there is also tremendous sadness -- from the pain
of remembering and the devastation left behind by Milosevic's
campaign of hate. And in many victims there is rage, a desire
for justice, and sometimes revenge." (Foreign Policy Adviser
Sandy Berger, "Remarks to Council on Foreign Relations",
July 26, 1999)

In this remarkable speech Mr. Berger a) gives the KLA the green
light to attack Serbs because it's all quite understandable
considering the "tremendous sadness" and the "victims" consumed
with "rage" and b) makes the purpose of the war crimes
investigations perfectly clear. That purpose is NOT to discover the
truth. Discovery is unnecessary; Mr. Berger has discovered the
truth in advance. Rather the purpose of investigation is to provide
"reminders that America and our allies did the right thing."

Thus the investigation is controlled by two highly interested parties,
NATO and the KLA. Their control includes not only the handling of
evidence but the recruitment and preparation of witnesses.
Obviously such witnesses can be either agents of the KLA or under
KLA domination. Any witness providing testimony disliked by the
KLA would be risking his or her life. And as a recent story in the
mainstream media suggests, the KLA considers lying a perfectly
legitimate weapon in winning international support. (See note 2 at
end) So much for the witnesses.

Bigots with a heart

And then there is the problem of the graves. The Spanish experts
say the cadavers were found in individual graves, not mass graves.
That is thoughtful of the Serbs. And even more thoughtful: the
graves were "oriented for the most part toward Mecca out of respect
for the religious beliefs of the Albanian Kosovars…"

This is curious. I have read many newspaper articles which argue
that Serbs are hostile to Albanians because the Albanians are
(mostly) Muslims. This supposed hostility was supposedly the
motivation for alleged anti-Albanian atrocities. The Serbs say they
don't hate anybody, that they have been fighting to preserve a
multiethnic society against a terrorist assault by a racist faction
among ethnic Albanians - a faction backed by the U.S. and Germany.

Let's assume the newspapers are right and the Serbs are mistaken.
So first the Serbian troops murdered these Albanians out of religious
hatred - and then the same Serbian troops buried the same Albanians
facing Mecca out of religious respect. Isn't this rather strange
behavior?

Let's approach this from a different viewpoint, that of common
sense: perhaps the Spanish experts were lied to. Perhaps they were
shown the bodies of KLA troops who died fighting the Yugoslav
army; hence the bullet wounds (inflicted in battle) and the respectful
burial (performed either by the KLA or by Yugoslav troops who do
not hate Muslims and therefore respected Muslim burial customs.)
That at least would be believable.

There are many graves in Kosovo; too many. For a year and a half a
fierce war raged between KLA terrorists and the Yugoslav Army and
police. Aside from those who died in the fighting, we have credible
evidence that the KLA executed many pro-Yugoslav Albanians, as
well as non-Albanians (who do not necessarily differ from Albanians
in appearance) not to mention Yugoslav soldiers and policemen.

So, thousands of people died and were buried. The KLA has had a
free hand in Kosovo since early June, plenty of time to move bodies
around, to dress dead soldiers as civilians and to tutor 'grieving
relatives' until their stories sound believable. And despite all that,
the Spanish scientists, sent to the zone of the worst Serbian
atrocities, came back virtually empty-handed.

(A note in passing: The Spanish scientists and policemen report that
they were originally told they'd be doing 2000 autopsies. But they
were only shown 187 bodies. Why? Was this simply a miscount?
Impressive miscount, wouldn't you say? Or had NATO concocted the
2000 figure so that if the Spaniards were interviewed by the media
before doing the autopsies they would tell a 'good' story?

Or could there be a more sinister reason? Could it be that as the
autopsies proceeded it became clear to the Spaniards' NATO
handlers that were not 'politically correct', that they might a) figure
out and b) publicly testify that the other one thousand eight hundred
and thirteen bodies might be those of Serbs or pro-Yugoslav
Albanians massacred by the KLA, and that therefore these other
bodies were discretely withdrawn, perhaps moved to some other part
of Kosovo where the 'investigators' have a proper respect for unduly
constituted authority...

Investigation? or Inquisition?

Some people ask: are you saying Serbs are incapable of committing
atrocities? No, as with all populations, some Serbian people are
probably capable of committing atrocities. But to go from this
general possibility to the charge that the Serbian armed forces
systematically killed Albanian civilians (while they were at the same
time publicly arguing for multi-ethnic unity and indeed arming many
Albanians against the KLA) is to go quite a distance. Traversing it
requires something: proof.

American legal theory says a person is innocent until proven guilty.
Implicit in this approach is the notion that criminal investigation
should be conducted by disinterested parties with a goal of finding
out if there has been a crime and discovering the truth, not in
concocting a case to destroy some enemy.

Aside from whether this standard is actually applied in the U.S. legal
system (a highly debatable point) shouldn't we insist it be applied
when dealing with alleged mass crimes possibly implicating a
government and an entire people? Or should such investigations be
launched only as needed to justify NATO policy? Should guilt then
be decided by a hostile US press with government officials making
prejudicial statements before the fact? Should the evidence be the
testimony of 'witnesses' supplied by the US side in a vicious war,
'witnesses' who testify in secret, 'witnesses' who are never
cross-examined by the accused?

The use of these Inquisitorial methods of proof rebounds, proving
that NATO (that is, the US government) and the media are trying to
railroad the Serbian people.

Every time an accusation is made, two parties go on trial: the
accused and the accuser. For if an accusation can be shown to be
false, then the question must be asked: was it made with malicious
intent? Was it perhaps cooked up to divert attention from and/or
justify some other crime, some greater crime? Some crime, perhaps,
committed by the accuser? (see note 3 at end)

The Spanish forensic scientists and policemen quoted in El Pais have
done us all a service. By denying NATO's charges they have
indicted NATO. In doing so they have risked NATO's wrath - and
their careers - to tell the truth.

Their decency gives one hope.

-- Jared Israel 10-7-99

***


ReplyQuote
 adam
(@adam)
Active Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 14
November 24, 1999 9:35 pm  

Comments concerning the Spanish forensic scientists who were sent
to Kosovo by NATO to find evidence of Serbian genocide, and didn't.

by Jared Israel (revised 10-7-99)

Had to be a Jew to say there was no genocide!

ha ha! most credible!


P.S. For those of you who do not know, serbs and jews are terrific friends


ReplyQuote
 adam
(@adam)
Active Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 14
November 24, 1999 9:38 pm  

To Daniela,

Instead of telling lies on this message board, maybe you should direct your recriminations against Milosovec and his terrorist regime. It is because of him, Yugoslavia is bankrupt and with no future and the dinar worthless.


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(@suitboy)
Trusted Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 81
November 25, 1999 12:13 am  

Adam,

State your case. What's your proof? Can you produce the bodies? The hard forensics evidence?

If you can, we'd all like to see it.

Not rumor ... not hearsay ... not inuendo ... not official' statements ... not hyperbole ... not exageration ... not wishful thinking ... not propoganda ... not distortion ... not NATO reports ... not DoS press releases.

JUST THE HARD EVIDENCE...

Who's got it? What does it show?

Suitboy


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 adam
(@adam)
Active Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 14
November 25, 1999 3:09 am  

Deep down all the hypocritical people know perfectly well about serbian genocide. Your blatent lying is disgusting. I thank God that this time, the milosovec/serb terrorist machine was defeated.

As for evidence, just check all those mass graves, and ask the 1.4 million albanians who were made into refugees. But I am sure, all you serb terrorist loving people will claim that the mass graves were faked by Hollyood as well as the pictures of over 1 million people leaving Kosova!


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(@nalini)
Active Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 8
November 25, 1999 8:24 pm  

Suitboy/Daniela

I have a strong opinion on what happened in the balkan, but as i said earlier. I have little acces to a computer. The computer im on now is of a friens. They gave me some time which i don't have to pay for but the rest i do. Which i can't much.
If the situation would be different i would place articals or something to support my views.

The only thing i can express is that i find all what has happened over past 10 years a bit more. Very sadning. Im not going to choose parties as im a peace loving person. So the only party i would choose is peace and freedom for all

Really i wish i could go into more detailed discussion, maybe when fortune comes my way some day:-))

Be well


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(@daniela)
Reputable Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 333
November 25, 1999 9:24 pm  

"Globe and Mail", Canada, November 22, 1999,


Yugoslavia: UN dog should die, Kosovo Albanians say

A group of Kosovo Albanians wants a dog adopted as a mascot by United
Nations police to be put down because it is Serbian, UN sources said
yesterday.

Members of the UN police force in Kosovo adopted the stray dog, which is
expecting a litter, in September. They named the animal UNMIK, the
acronym for the UN Mission in Kosovo.

A group of ethnic Albanians recently told the UN police the dog has to
be killed because it is Serbian, said U.S. officer Sam Holton, who looks
after UNMIK. Soldiers told the Albanians they would not comply with the
request.

AFP


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(@daniela)
Reputable Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 333
November 25, 1999 9:29 pm  

Nalini, is that another story for us to cry over.
Just what Emina-Kolina-Zoja-Zpka was doing all along. Can you at least try to use diferent kind of sentences - you "two" seem too similar...


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(@suitboy)
Trusted Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 81
November 26, 1999 6:37 am  

Adam,

I repeat. Show us the evidence.

Not rumor ... not hearsay ... not inuendo ... not 'official' statements ... not hyperbole ... not
exageration ... not wishful thinking ... not propoganda ... not distortion ... not NATO reports ... not DoS press releases.

JUST THE HARD EVIDENCE...

Suitboy


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 adam
(@adam)
Active Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 14
November 26, 1999 2:18 pm  

Suitboy

I believe it is for you to learn to read credible newspapers and not milo propaganda. That way you will find your evidence.


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