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Trusted Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 81
November 1, 1999 2:48 am  


The Sunday Times, No 9140, October 31st 1999


By Nicholas Rufford

ROBIN COOK, the foreign secretary, is under pressure to answer claims that ministers misled the public over the scale of deaths among civilians in Kosovo to justify the Nato bombing of Belgrade.

The all-party Balkans committee of MPs will ask the Foreign Office this week to comment on reports that the number of bodies of victims of Serbian ethnic cleansing is lower than the figures of dead issued during the conflict. At the height of the war, western officials spoke of a death toll as high as 100,000. President Bill Clinton said the Nato campaign had prevented "deliberate, systematic efforts at ethnic cleansing and genocide". Geoff Hoon, then a Foreign Office minister and now the defence secretary, later scaled down the estimates. "It appears that about 10,000 people have been killed in more than 100 massacres," he said.

The most outspoken challenge to these figures has come from Emilio Perez Pujol, a pathologist who led the Spanish team looking for bodies in the aftermath of the fighting. He said: "I calculate that the final figure of dead in Kosovo will be 2,500 at the most. This includes lots of strange deaths that can't be blamed on anyone in particular."

Perez Pujol said the numbers of dead were far lower than the 44,000 he had been warned of, and few were in mass graves. He said his team had arrived in Kosovo expecting to perform 2,000 post-mortem examinations and to work to the end of November. "On September 12 I called my people together and said: 'We have finished here.' I informed my government and told them of the real situation. We had found a total of 187 bodies. Four or five had died from natural causes."

United Nations officials have begun taking stock of the death toll this weekend after the exhumation of corpses stopped for the winter. The UN is expected to report next month that the total number of victims so far uncovered is fewer than 2,000. Many were executed, but some died during fighting and others died in allied bombing. There is still no clear picture, however. Some of the forensic teams sent by 15 different countries say they have discovered fewer bodies than they anticipated. Others say there is more work to do and believe the death toll will rise.

The US State Department said this weekend that about 1,400 bodies have been recovered from about 20% of suspected massacre sites. There are about 500 suspected sites and priority has been given to those that were believed to contain the most bodies. The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia reported earlier this month that the notorious Trepca mines in Kosovo, where 700 ethnic Albanian bodies were reportedly hidden, contained none.

The largest number of bodies has been recovered by British teams of police officers, pathologists and forensic scientists in the area where the worst mass killings reportedly occurred. They found 505 bodies, some in mass graves and many of them women and children.

Detective Chief Superintendent John Bunn, who led the British investigation group, said his teams had completed work at most of the sites around Prizren and Velakrusa, where some of the worst atrocities were said to have occurred. He said he had found graves containing as many as 77 bodies together of people executed at close range.

Alice Mahon, the Labour MP who chairs the Balkans committee, said yesterday that the deaths were tragic but did not justify the military action taken by Nato. "When you consider that 1,500 civilians or more were killed during Nato bombing, you have to ask whether the intervention was justified," she said.

Active Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 8
November 1, 1999 10:08 am  

Hello everyone.
I've been looking at this list now for some time, and went through the archives just out of curiosity how everyone still posting, and people who posted in the past came to their opinions.
What I find a pity is that people who seemed to have been there, or at least seem to have terrible experiences, get mocked at, while they might be giving ok information.
Secondly, I think it's a real pity that most people only post written stories out of newspapers or other websites without "really" discussing them. I am not here to point any fingers, because my strong opinion is that every individual should be free to express their opinion.However, that also means that it might be good to listen to people who seem to have suffered or at least lived under unpleasant circumstances, whatever and however they may have been.

This is just a small word of advice from someone who followed the discussion for a while and went through the archives to read past post, in hope to gain a better understanding on why you participants react like you do. Unfortunately I do not have time enough to really participate in your dicussion, but it just might be worth wile to stand still and look at your reactions towards each other

Hope you all find your peace.

Reputable Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 333
November 1, 1999 9:21 pm  

Those people just didn't tell any truth - as simple as that. A lost credibility alltogether...
It's a well known fact, so don't comme arround playing God

Active Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 6
November 2, 1999 1:39 pm  

to nalini:
as a newcomer, you would do well to remember
that ms. daniela is sole constituent of "truth",
"credibility", "well-known facts", and
"god-playing" on this board.

Reputable Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 333
November 2, 1999 3:15 pm  

no, no; sorry - that must be you ?

Trusted Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 81
November 2, 1999 6:12 pm  

No, no, you're both wrong.

It's me!!


Trusted Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 81
November 2, 1999 6:25 pm  

Note to Phil:

Have been very busy lately. Y2K stuff. Likely to get worse.

Finished the HRW report (several readings, much note taking). Will post response as soon as I get the time.

Briefly (for now) - I'd have to say it's a major piece of bunk and the perfect confirmation of Diana Johnstone's assessment of HRW.

Completely anecdotal. No hard forensic evidence, lots of rumors. The thing that seems to be missing in this whole report are the bodies!!! Where are they? How can you have a massacre without the bodies?

I really suggest you, or anyone else concerned, read that report very, very carefully - line by line. There is a great deal of contradiction as well as a lot of material that is completely irrevelant to the report.

more later


Reputable Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 333
November 2, 1999 10:11 pm  

Save the Families of Orahovac!

Interview with 3 heroines and a call to action
by Jared Israel (posted 11-2-99)

[Note from Our Website has been down for a
week. It should be up and running soon. In the meantime all articles
can be read by going to: .]

"Vast numbers of people all over the world have protested the
bombing of Yugoslavia. But now, after the cessation of
bombing, we in Yugoslavia have entered the worst hell. Serbs,
Roma, Jews and others are driven out of Kosovo; some
disappear; some are murdered and their murders attributed to
forces beyond NATO's control. Some, like the Serbs and
Roma of Orahovac, are imprisoned in a new Warsaw Ghetto."
(Statement 10-23-99 by Cedomir Prlincevic, President, Jewish
Community of Pristina, driven out of Kosovo by the Kosovo
Liberation Army (KLA) and NATO)

"The whole scene was one of horror, the children crying, us
women trying to convince KFOR [i.e., NATO officers]. The
Dutch Commander shouted: "ENOUGH! Just those who came
should go back on the truck and the children must go back
where they came." So there was more crying and the women
were crying and shouting, and he screamed: "ENOUGH!" So
we left, but the children were forced to return to Orahovac."
(Natasha, interviewed below.)

Following are excerpts from three interviews with members of the
Women's Humanitarian Committee on Orahovac. These women have
been fighting against all odds to free their relatives from a nightmare
that defies summary description: you must read the interviews to
grasp the horror of what NATO (KFOR) has done.

On Oct. 23, I described these interviews to a large antiwar meeting
in Amsterdam. People were horrified at the role of Dutch KFOR. On
the 28th Nico Varkevisser of Global Reflexion, Cedomir Prelincevic,
the Jewish leader and refugee from Pristina and I addressed party
representatives from the Military Committee of the Dutch
Parliament. Some were moved; at least one (the Christian Democrat)
simply did not want to hear about Orahovac. The Dutch government
is only beginning to realize that Orahovac is their nightmare as well;
this scandal challenges their legitimacy.

The Orahovac Women, are urging all decent people to join with them
in the International Humanitarian Committee on Orahovac. As the
Women suggest, the International Committee calls on you to:

1) Protest to the Dutch government. (Email and fax addresses are at
the end)

2) Join and help the International Committee. Email"> or write to Orahovac Committee c/o Global
Reflexion, PO Box 59262, 1040 KG, Amsterdam, Holland

3) Support the International Delegation which will go to Orahovac to
bring out everyone who wants to leave. For more details, see the
heading SAVE THE FAMILES after the interviews.

Please read these interviews. See what NATO is doing IN OUR

Jared Israel was the interviewer. Peter Makara translated.

Also included are excerpts from "To Kosovo and Back" by Zoran, a
Serbian diplomatic aide who toured Kosovo a month ago. His
complete report can be read at


The first woman we interviewed was Natasha, age 27. An Orahovac
native, she studied in Belgrade until December, 1998, then returned
home. In August, 1999, she escaped from Orahovac. Natasha says
3000 Serbs remain in the town. When the Yugoslav Army retreated
in June and KFOR (NATO) occupation troops arrived:

Natasha: "Maybe a thousand or more Serbs left. Orahovac is
unique in that so many did stay; that’s because we believed
KFOR guarantees that we’d be safe. When it became clear
things weren’t going to be that way, people wanted to leave,
but they were not allowed. Besides the Serbs, 500-1000 Roma,
or 'Gypsies', stayed."


Natasha: "From April on our telephone connections as well as
Serbian radio and TV were cut off thanks to NATO bombing.
We had little information about what was happening in the rest
of the country. We heard that after the June Peace Agreement
was signed there was a massive exodus of Serbs from Prizen
and elsewhere but we couldn’t verify it so we wondered if it
was true. Meanwhile, we were constantly being told by
Western media that our security would be guaranteed - for
instance, by Voice of America, which we heard via satellite
connections. They used phrases about multiethnic,
multicultural society and their Democracy and promised first to
disarm KLA, then to establish their laws.

"The morning before KFOR arrived there was a meeting of
their representatives with the Mayor, a Serb, plus other Serbs
including the head of the winery. KFOR said that in two days
or so life would return to normal. The next day the houses were


Natasha: "With KFOR, the KLA came. The same day. Some
neighbors even appeared in KLA uniforms. We were horrified.
Suddenly we didn’t feel safe [in the mixed section of Orahovac]
so we moved to the Serbian part.

"As we were leaving we saw, already, Serbian houses being
burned. KFOR did nothing. We complained; they said they
didn’t have enough people. Soon reinforcements arrived but
the situation stayed the same for a month. Over a hundred
houses were burned. And they robbed whatever they could. A
few "Gypsy" (Roma) houses were burned too. Twenty-five
people who stayed in the mixed section were kidnapped, plus
their houses were burned too.

"Slowly we realized the extent of the mistake we’d made in not
leaving. Every day KFOR offered new excuses for not
protecting us. They said: 'We can’t put guards in front of every
house. We can’t give every Serb an armed guard.'

"The KFOR checkpoint is close to the ghetto. KFOR guards
the entrance and exit to the Serbian area. Plus there are
barricades, which the Albanians put up. First you hit KFOR
and second you hit the Albanian barricades. KFOR supplied
tents for the Albanians who are sitting on those barricades.
And they ran electric wiring into those tents to provide

[In his article in emperors-clothes, Zoran reports "Albanian
roadblocks outside Orahovac are former German/Dutch fortified
checkpoints. I can not imagine that Albanians could have taken
control of those without [KFOR's] tacit approval – or instigation.
The organizing committee at the roadblocks is armed. Heavier
weapons are kept in hundreds of tents erected around the barricades
– supposedly for women and children. Muscular men in sport suits
patrolling the site carry small firearms under their jackets."]


Natasha: "We were kept in this Serb enclave. My parents can
come out on the streets but that’s dangerous; two people were
wounded just being outside the house. Those who have tried to
escape simply disappeared.

"There is no phone service to Belgrade. The only food is from
humanitarian sources. One "Gypsy" tried to ship food from
the Albanian to the Serbian section; some extreme Albanian
group told him, "No food for the Serbs!" Near the beginning
we would send some Albanian kid to buy stuff for us. But the
kid would be beaten up and they would tell him 'Don't do that

"The ghetto is 500 square yards. Water is erratic: once in
three days for two or three hours.

"During the first days there were lots of reporters. Later there
were fewer; I spoke to a Reuters' journalist twice. The second
time he said the first interview had been all censored and
crossed out."

[Zoran reports: "In the first days after KFOR's arrival, 5 Orahovac
Serbs were killed and 10 abducted under the watchful eyes of
German troops. Serbs aren't even allowed to go to the market or
grocery store 50 meters away. The considerable Gypsy population,
together with the Serbs, suffers equally."]

Natasha: "The only thing that KFOR did was organize a
shipment of bread to the Serbian part; they were very proud of
it. We only see KFOR in the street; there are no meetings.
The Albanians are in charge. They took everything. You
occasionally have small KFOR patrols but Headquarters is in
the Albanian section."

[Zoran reports: "In Orahovac itself the former police station has
been turned into a KLA HQ. The local KLA commander, the man
who runs this town, is a mass murderer named Ismet Hara,
responsible for last year’s abductions and brutal killings of over 60
Serbian civilians from Orahovac (the bodies of most are still
missing), some of whom – it is reasonably believed – he personally

"Serbs say they recognize many local Albanians in the ranks of the
German KFOR. Probably KLA members recruited in
Albania…KFOR denies this…I’ve personally seen KLA
Commanders with their escort – all [illegally] armed – entering
KFOR bases with KFOR ID cards and never a delay."]


[Zoran reports: "Early in the KFOR/KLA occupation,
Dutch/German Baklava Units gave local Serbs 24 hours to hand in
all their weapons. (note that the KLA has been given 3 months and
still counting….) The naïve Serbs complied. A few weeks later, the
Dutch/German troops entered the Serbian quarter in broad daylight,
fired some warning shots over the heads of Serbs who were gathered
near a church and dragged people from their houses. Serbian
witness say they grabbed people by the hair and pulled them out
while kicking them…

"The Dutch/German troops arrested the Serbian Mayor and two
other Serbs, accusing them of ‘war crimes’. There is no credible
evidence to support these charges, though the Albanian side has
spread rumors that documents discovered in a cellar of one house
implicated the Mayor."]

Natasha: "Yes, that arrest was spectacular, just like that. I
heard that KFOR had masks. They arrested the doctor and the
Mayor [and a restaurant owner.] They accused them of war

"Nine people were seized altogether. The second group of six
was just ordinary people. They had been working with the
International Red Cross which wants to evacuate old and sick
people. The six were told they could leave. Then KFOR
arrested them at the checkpoint."

[Zoran reports: "From reliable international sources I learned the
arrests are an attempt to turn these people into "important
witnesses" in a made-up war crimes case against Serbs, not because
of real evidence.

"Here’s the strategy: first they isolate the Serbs, then they wear them
out, then they kick them out – after extracting the people Albanians
accuse of being ‘war criminals’. To this end, they come up with all
kinds of justifications for keeping the last remaining Serb civilians
in this monstrous new ghetto."]


Natasha: "The people who left that mixed part of the town the
first day didn’t have time to take any luggage or personal
belongings. Not even personal documents. A lower level
German officer who was friendly and kind did provide us with
an armed escort [so we could get some basic necessities] and
even helped with luggage. But soon after that he disappeared;
we [Serbs] never saw him again.

"In another case a common Dutch soldier saw an Albanian
coming from a burning house. The Dutch soldier wanted to
shoot at the arsonist but his officer stopped him, and they
quarreled. We didn’t see that soldier later either. Their
practice in general was that they would change the people who
patrol the Serbian area with the intention obviously that these
people not get friendly with the Serbs.


Natasha: "In another case a Serbian woman was about to
deliver. She wanted to go the maternity ward in the Orahovac
hospital. Ever since KFOR’s arrival, Albanians comprise the
entire staff at this hospital. She got a KFOR escort and was
taken to this local hospital; they said it would be a difficult
delivery and to go to the larger town, Prizen. KFOR provided
escort to Prizen. The delivery was difficult and in front of
KFOR the hospital staff said that she should stay for at least
24 hours but as soon as KFOR had left, they kicked her out
into the corridor. So she spent the night on a bench with the
new baby."

[Editor’s note: Natasha then recounts how when KFOR finally came
and brought this woman and her baby back to Orahovac, her relative
complained to a Dutch commanding officer. The officer replied:
'She's alive isn’t she? Why complain?"]


[Editor’s note: In August, Natasha fled from Orahovac to Belgrade.
There she and other women with relatives in Orahovac pressed the
Yugoslav government to intervene. The government negotiated with
KFOR for two convoys of women to go to Orahovac with KFOR

Natasha was on the second trip. After a brief visit, the woman met at
the Serbian Orthodox Church so KFOR could take them back to the

Natasha: "I was there visiting my parents for three hours after
a whole night of traveling and harassment: more time at
KFOR’s checkpoint then with my family. After the visit a
crowd gathered at the church. They wanted their children to
leave Orahovac. KFOR didn’t want a scene so they let us get
on the truck with the children. It was quite crowded.

"Back at the checkpoint, they divided us women from the
children. They made a list of the people who came in with the
convoy, and they said those people could leave but the children
had to go back [to Orahovac]."


Natasha: "The children started crying; they wanted to go with
us. We tried to convince KFOR to let the children go; they said
if one "extra" person leaves they would not provide an escort.
And already Albanians were gathering around, kind of
watching what was happening. And it was getting dark.

"The trick was that the KFOR would bring us back only to our
bus and from there on it would be completely unsafe.

"The whole scene was one of horror, the children crying, us
women trying to convince KFOR. The Dutch commander
shouted: 'ENOUGH! Just those who came should go back on
the truck and the children must go back where they came.' So
there was more crying and the women were crying and
shouting, and he screamed: 'ENOUGH!' The children were
forced to go back."

INTERVIEW # 2 – Miriana

Miriana, whom we interviewed second, said the women went next to
Pristina, capital of Kosovo. Six women met with Mr. Ivancev[sp?], an
assistant to UN Kosovo Chief Bernard Kouchner.

Miriana: "We told him that this really felt like a concentration
camp and that that should happen at the gate to the 21st
century was astonishing. Each told her story separately. He
said he didn't know too much about Serbs in Orahovac, he was
at that duty only a month and a half. We told him it’s actually a
humanitarian catastrophe. He was apologetic.
"He wrote down all we said. He said he’d be talking to Mr.
Kouchner in the afternoon and would then contact us. We gave
him our mobile phone number and told him where we were
staying. He promised to call.
"He did respect his word and called about 5 or 6. He talked to
our translator Aleksander and apologized because it was
Tuesday and he couldn’t go before Friday. We agreed to meet
him Friday noontime at the Turkish checkpoint [at or near

[Natasha reports that a Yugoslav representative in Pristina, Mr.
Tomovich, negotiated with KFOR for an armed escort as well as the
presence of a doctor and medical supplies on the trip.]


Miriana: "We stayed in the Serb-run 'Center for Peace and
Tolerance'. The conditions were quite awful. We didn’t have a
place to sleep. We didn’t have water, current or food. It was
really quite difficult but we kept in our minds the conditions of
our families in Orahovac so we were just waiting for this Friday
to come so we could go and see our families again and try and
help our families.

"Right across from the Center were food stores. But we
couldn't cross the street and buy because we were Serbs. So
we gave the soldiers money to go buy stuff for us. Our
translators or these soldiers would cross the street and buy
apples or something."


Miriana: "Four in the morning the water came and we quickly
got ready. 9:30 in the morning we got out in the yard to wait for
KFOR escort. Two Yugoslav representatives waited with us.
But the escort did not come. Ten in the morning came; eleven
came; 11:30. We were losing hope that we’d be able to get to
the Turkish checkpoint at noon. Our representative [name
unintelligible] said it seemed that the German KFOR troops [in
command at Orahovac] were now demanding a signed
permission by the International Red Cross for us to get to

"We saw that something had failed. So we said to a British
Captain, he was in uniform" 'Give us an escort; let’s go now.'

"So that guy, whom we would be able to recognize now among
a million NATO troops, went to KFOR headquarters. And he
came back and asked, 'Could you perhaps go to Orahovac
tomorrow but without an escort and without a translator; and if
you agree, you must respect whatever orders the German
command there in Orahovac gives you." It would be just us
without an escort. Just the women without even the doctor. We
were to come at 8 AM and strictly obey the German command.

"So we said even that way we would go but we wanted a
written document where the conditions would be spelled out.
This British officer said: no written document. We insisted. He
said no.

"Another night was coming. When it was obvious that these
negotiations would fail, we said, 'All right, give us an escort so
we can go back to the rest of Serbia.' Immediately he said OK;
in 45 minutes we would get an escort.

'You see we had insisted a document exist so that in case we
disappeared there would at least be a record. The bus we were
using was from Serbia, with large Cyrillic letters. So it really
sounded like that, that we would disappear. They could spin the
story this way: they had tried to arrange a trip that was
guarded but the women insisted on going on their own against
KFOR’s wishes and then this terribly regrettable thing
happened. Due to the Albanians’ desire for revenge against
the Serbian oppressors, etc., etc. It was so transparent that
even a little child could see through it. We had hoped that on
this trip we would find some good people among the occupation
forces, that there could be some good people but we saw that
there are none."


Simca lived in Belgrade for many years but has maintained close ties
with family and friends in Orahovac, calling and visiting frequently.

Simca: "Until the ninth of April I had phone contact. After that
I was just guessing. The connection between Belgrade and
Pristina worked almost all the time but this Metohija area,
towards Albania, the phone lines were down. During the
bombing our contact was through the mail; it took 20 days,
sometimes a month, but we kept in touch. You have to
understand that since June we’ve been pressuring the
Yugoslav government to organize some visit there."

[Simca was one of two women who went on the first trip back to

Simca: "On this trip there were just two women from
Orahovac. I was one. We had three large trucks with
humanitarian supplies. When we got to the Dutch checkpoint in
Orahovac the Dutch officer said one of the trucks could
proceed into the Serbian area but that we, the two women,
could not. They would unload the truck to see what was on it
and then they would let in the second truck.

"I was afraid I would not be able to see my relatives at all. I
started to cry and I begged one of the soldiers: "Please.
Please." And he just waved his hand as if too say, "Go back to
the group, go back to the others."

"Suddenly I saw this man nearby, a civilian; he was my
Serbian neighbor and I was surprised. His face is maybe
similar to an Albanian. I said, 'How come you can roam
around?' 'And he said, 'Oh, they’re confused; they think I’m an
Albanian.' So he was free and I said, 'Look, please don’t tell
my mother I’m here. My mother has a heart problem. I didn’t
want my neighbor to tell her that I’m there and then if I’m not
able to see them she might get sick.'

"When Albanians go through this checkpoint they’re not even
stopped. They just wave and KFOR waves back; it’s just us
that are stopped. Albanians clap their hands and shout 'NA
–TO, NA – TO!' And the Dutch people are very friendly
towards the Albanians.

"This neighbor of mine did not listen to my advice. He went
and told my family. And suddenly I saw my brother and sister
walking towards me. The Dutch soldiers immediately formed
themselves into a row and put up a barbed wire barricade. So it
was I, then these soldiers, then this barbed wire, and then my
brother and sister on the other side. I was crying on one side of
the barricade and my brother and sister were crying on the
other side."

[Simca was weeping as she spoke.]

Simca: "I knelt down and begged him in English, 'This is my
brother and my sister, please help me.' And he just waved his
hands, saying, 'Nein, Nein.'

The use here of the word "Nein" here confused the interviewer and
there followed this exchange between him, the translator and Simca:

Jared: "Is that the Dutch word for 'No?' That’s not a Dutch

Simca: "I thought if I addressed him in English he would
answer in English but no, he said, ‘Nein Nein'. "

Jared: "But that’s a German word."

Simca: "I understand the difference."

Jared: "But he was Dutch."

Translator: "She knows that. That’s her point."

[Simca continued with her report:]

Simca: "Then this 'friend' of ours, this Dutch Major appeared,
and I told him this was my brother and sister. He showed some
mercy and told the soldiers that these two, my brother and
sister, could pass through. So I was able to hug my brother and
"My brother does not show his emotions. I didn’t see him cry
at my father’s funeral. But when he came and hugged me he
cried too. It was terrible. The other people heard that someone
had come from Belgrade and suddenly all of them were
walking towards the checkpoint en masse though it was not a
safe thing to do.
"Once he saw so many people coming, this friend of ours, this
Dutch Major, decided that maybe there would be an incident
so perhaps it would be better to let the women in. So we got in.
It’s difficult to put in words what happened. People surrounded
us asking us questions: 'What’s happening?' 'Are we
forgotten?' 'How can we get out?' Questions and tears and
"My mother was just 15 yards away but she couldn’t reach me
because there was such a crowd. They looked at us as if we’d
come from another planet, as if we were Gods, desperate to
touch us and ask us questions. These people don’t get
newspapers; they don’t get TV; the telephones don’t work.
"This Major, I was begging him to let my sister and her little
children out. And he said: 'No! Only those who came in can get


Simca: "The procedure for getting in was astonishing. They
photographed our ID documents. A woman searched me. I had
to lift my arms and spread my legs and she was touching me
everywhere as if she was looking for weapons. Just like in the
movies. I felt bad before and I felt horrible afterwards.

"First they look at the car, they look under the seats of the
car, they look around and inside. They photograph the
documents. Then they do this search with their hands around
your body and then they do that to the next person and they
tell you to stay aside while they do that to the next person. I
had taken cookies and chocolate for my sister’s children and
they crushed it up and turned it over and inside out.

Simca was only allowed two and a half hours visiting in Orahovac.

Simca: "As we were getting ready to leave suddenly there was
a number of young people, boys and girls, who were all packed.
They appeared immediately with suitcases; the same thing
happened with the second convoy. I didn’t spend much time
with my mother; I have to admit that. I was concentrating all
my effort on how I could save my sister and her young
children. The youngest is two.

Simca: "When we were leaving they made sure to keep people
separated. There were the two of us, then a row of soldiers,
then the barbed wire, another row of soldiers on the other side.
Then the German police, with red berets made another wall.
We were to leave at 5:30 but it took until 10:30. The problem
was that three young girls slipped through the lines and got
into the jeep of a journalist who was with us. This journalist
fiercely quarreled with KFOR, demanding that the girls be
allowed to go.
"There were more and more people coming from the Serbian
section to the checkpoint. This journalist said he wouldn’t let
these girls be taken from the jeep; KFOR would have to shoot
him. So the Major, seeing all these people and fearing trouble
after this long quarrel, let the jeep leave with the three young
girls. He was very angry. He said, "OK, you can leave. But
you have not respected the Rules agreed on for this visit!"

* * *

[In a later interview (October 31), Simca recounted another
conversation with Mr. Ivancev, the Russian assistant to UN Kosovo
Chief Kouchner, which took place October 29. Ivancev told her they
were holding the Serbs hostage in Orahovac because the Albanians
had given KFOR a list of 200 war criminals.]

Simca: "Ivancev said, 'The war criminals are hiding among the
Serbs.' I asked him: 'Then what about the children? Why have
you refused to release the children for four months?' He
looked miserable. 'That's the question I asked Mr. Kouchner,'
he said. And he looked so miserable I almost felt sorry for


This situation cries out for IMMEDIATE action. The lives of an
entire community are at stake. They have been sentenced; they are
granted NO RIGHT OF APPEAL. The Orahovac women have asked
us to act NOW before more people are killed!

An International Humanitarian Committee on Orahovac has been
formed. It includes the Orahovac women in Serbia, people in Holland
and the US. Please join with us and help spread the message.

If you would like to help with this effort in any way please contact:">


1.Join the Committee. To join just Email or write us at the PO
Box listed below. Join personally or in the name of your group
and tell us you want to join.
2.Participate in and/or support the Delegation to Orahovac. This
International Delegation will GO TO ORAHOVAC and bring
out anyone who wants to leave. If you can send a contribution
please do; any money not used to pay the Committee's
expenses will be donated to the people of Orahovac for
humanitarian relief. Send contributions to: Orahovac
Committee c/o Global Reflexion, PO Box 59262, 1040 KG,
Amsterdam, Holland.
3.Please send the following message to the Dutch officials listed
below and ask your political, labor, business or other
organizations to do likewise. Also contact your local Dutch
embassy and let them know how you feel by phone and email
and fax. Here's the proposed tex

Reputable Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 333
November 2, 1999 10:19 pm  


1.Join the Committee. To join just Email or write us at the PO
Box listed below. Join personally or in the name of your group
and tell us you want to join.
2.Participate in and/or support the Delegation to Orahovac. This
International Delegation will GO TO ORAHOVAC and bring
out anyone who wants to leave. If you can send a contribution
please do; any money not used to pay the Committee's
expenses will be donated to the people of Orahovac for
humanitarian relief. Send contributions to: Orahovac
Committee c/o Global Reflexion, PO Box 59262, 1040 KG,
Amsterdam, Holland.
3.Please send the following message to the Dutch officials listed
below and ask your political, labor, business or other
organizations to do likewise. Also contact your local Dutch
embassy and let them know how you feel by phone and email
and fax. Here's the proposed text but feel free to change it any
way you wish:

"WE DEMAND that KFOR troops guarantee safety,
food, water, electricity and phones - normal living
conditions - for the Serbs of Orahovac.

WE DEMAND that KFOR troops guarantee the safe
movement of ANYONE in Orahovac.

WE DEMAND that KFOR immediately institute a
PROTECTED bus route from Orahovac to the
Yugoslav-controlled part of Serbia."




Mr. J.J. van Aartsen, Minister of Foreign Affairs –

Mr. F.H.G. de Grave, Minister of Defense –


Mrs. J. van Nieuwenhoven, President of the Second Chambre of the
parliament -

Mrs. Margreeth de Boer, President of the parliamentary commission
on Foreign Affairs -

Mr. Gerrit Valk, President of the parliamentary commission on
Defense -

Government parties:

Mr. A.P.W. Melkert, President of the Labor Party –

Mr. H.F. Dijkstal, President of the Liberal Party –

Mr. Th.C. de Graaf , President of the Democratic Party –

Opposition parties:

Mr. J.G. de Hoop Scheffer, President of the Christen-Democratic

Mr. P. Rosenmoller, President of the Green Left Party –

Mr. J.G.C.A. Marijnissen, President of the Socialist Party –

Mr. B.J. van der Vlies, President of the Protestant Reformed Party -

Mr. L. van Dijke, President of the Reformatoric Party –

Fax numbers:

Mr. W. Kok, Prime Minister: ++ 31 70 356 4683

Mr. J.J. van Aartsen, Minister of Foreign Affairs: ++ 31 70 348 5098

Mr. F.H.G. de Grave, Minister of Defense: ++ 31 70 318 7888

Mrs. J. van Nieuwenhoven, Pres. Second Chambre of the
parliament: ++ 31 70 365 4122

Government parties:

The Labour Party: ++ 31 70 318 2797

The Liberal Party: ++ 31 70 318 2924

Democratic Party: ++ 31 70 318 3625

Opposition parties:

The Christen-Democratic Party: ++ 31 70 318 2602

The Green Left Party: ++ 31 70 318 2685

The Socialist Party: ++ 31 70 318 3803

The Protestant Reformed Party: ++ 31 70 318 2847

The Reformatoric Party: ++ 31 70 318 2933

The Protestant Reformed Union: ++ 31 70 318 2665

If you are reading this on a site other than emperors-clothes and
want to see other articles, please click here or go to

Trusted Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 81
November 3, 1999 5:15 am  


NATOite apologists will soon be flooding the media with this kind of revisionist garbage; a desperate attempt to salvage their integrity, not that they had any to begin with. I wanted to get this posted before their obsequious followers at DMS start posting similar distortions.

Be vigilant of the words they use to try to soften meanings, e.g., the blatant LIES of Jamie Shea become a mere "con trick"; accusations of genocide was SOMETIMES used by NATO as justification; "traumatized" refugees told stories with more "emotional" than factual truth (traumatized and emotional are words used to suck the reader in, weaken one's critical judgement).

This article is a good example of how NATO's apologist will "spin" the rapid unraveling of their lies about mass graves genocide. This is the line the sycophants of the NOW will take. We can expect a lot of these "yes, but" kinds of rationalizing from the apologists in the coming days and weeks. They will NEVER admit they were duped!

Even after citing the Spanish forensics expert, Stratfor reports, and pointing out NATO's hyperbole, the last paragraph tosses it all aside continues with the mantra

Serb forces committing mass atrocities; [they still mean genocide]

Serb forces were moving the Albanian population out of the province [they still mean ethnic cleansing]

And, of course, it's still Milosevic's fault. Even if it didn't happen, it's still his fault!! I'm almost begining to sympathize with the jerk. :O(

The Times - UK

October 31, 1999


How many bodies make a genocide?

The forensic experts who have been in Kosovo since NATO's bombing campaign ended in June, unearthing grisly evidence of mass murder that NATO's wartime reports indicated, are reaching a surprising conclusion. The number of ethnic Albanians murdered or executed during the springtime hostilities may be lower than at first suspected - perhaps in the hundreds, not tens of thousands. The good-hearted might treat this as cause for rejoicing. Instead it has been taken up as a stick with which to beat NATO. Critics suggest that NATO officials deliberately made up the accusation that the Yugoslav President, Slobodan Milosevic, planned the destruction of Kosovo Albanians. The accusation of genocide was sometimes used as moral justification for intervention. If it is not now backed by vast numbers of mass graves, critics allege that those who backed NATO were the victims of a con trick.

The picture that NATO officials painted during the war of events inside Kosovo was, legitimately, as dark as available information permitted. The US Defense Secretary, William Cohen, said that up to 100,000 Albanians had been killed by the Yugoslav military. Geoff Hoon, then Minister of State at the Foreign Office, said that 10,000 had been killed. President Clinton said tens of thousands had been killed on President Milosevic's orders. The UN told experts from 15 countries who were later sent into the province to expect 44,000 deaths.

Yet the very disparity between these estimates was, even at the time, an indication that no one could realistically evaluate what was going on the ground. During an air campaign in which much of Kosovo's Albanian majority fled both Serbs and bombs, either to take shelter in refugee camps abroad or to mill helplessly about inside their homeland - seeking a way out not barred by Serbs with guns - the closest approximation to the truth was the stories of refugees. Traumatized refugees may describe their escape, or fears for relatives in danger, with more emotional than factual truth. Misunderstandings must be expected. It was precisely because war engenders confusion and conspiracy theories that experts were ordered in to establish a more clinical truth.

Those experts have since lowered the death figures several times. According to Emilio Perez Pujol, head of a Spanish team which went home in disgust last month after finding just 187 bodies, there may be even fewer victims than the 11,000 of the latest NATO estimate. Several sites publicized by NATO as possible mass graves turn out to be empty. Stratfor, an analytical group examining data from Kosovo, suggests that the final toll might be as low as a few hundred.

This less bloodstained picture undoubtedly discredits the individuals who rushed to bandy exaggerated accusations of "genocide"; reality cannot keep up with their hyperbole. But it does nothing to invalidate NATO's rationale for fighting. Intervention was necessary to stop Serb forces committing mass atrocities; Mr. Milosevic had resisted all non-military pressure. Serb forces were moving the Albanian population out of the province. The actual number of civilians killed to scare the rest off is irrelevant; the prevention of mass murder and ethnic cleansing, on whatever scale, remains a war aim of which NATO can be proud.

Active Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 8
November 3, 1999 1:14 pm  

Dear Daniela

I read your response today about my remarks.
I don't intent to play god. I simply believe god is in each of us, but that is beside the point for this board I think.
I do wonder how you can be so sure IF or IF not people are telling the truth. It's quite a statement to make. Could you be so kind as to tell me which people you are referring to? IF, so, do you know these people personally?, Because in my opinion you can ONLY know IF people are lying IF you know their idenity. Like friends, relatives, aquaintances, and so on.

Well enough said. I Hope you are willing to answer my questions.

May peace be upon you!

Trusted Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 81
November 3, 1999 5:07 pm  


Over time, by reading, studying, analyzing, and tracking writers, columnists, and organizations one learns

who's ideas and opinions and perceptions have merit and are trustworthy;

who is a knowledgeable jounalist (and who is merely a reporter);

who understands history (and who's memory is only as long as the next soundbite).

It begins with educating oneself and history is the best teacher.

As Marie Antoinette is said to have remarked about the "glories of the revolution" - "There is nothing new under the Sun except that which has been forgotten" (which, is probably the real reason she lost her head!).


Trusted Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 81
November 3, 1999 5:11 pm  


My posted email address has an automatic delete on it if I don't check it in time, so I'm afraid I never got your emails.

I'll check it regularly now for a while and you can re-send your message. Then I'll give you another address.


Reputable Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 369
November 4, 1999 6:30 pm  

Signs & Omens in Your Life. Whispers from the universe.

There are two kinds of signs: The Messenger sign A Reflection sign

You can get a Messenger sign in your dreams, telling you about the

Reflection sign: Everything around you is reflecting you. i.e. If you
think "I am calm, I am a peaceful person" and you see arguments,
angry people all around you, guess what? That is probably a sign
that there is some subconscious anger within you. It's a reflection
sign. Take a look at the judgments that you make about people,
particularly if you make the same judgments about a lot of people,
they reflect your unconscious issues.....

Got this great mail form a friend of mine, and I thought it would fit the shoe fine on this board....

BTW, Nalini, fine postings, but I am afraid you will not get your question answered. Quite a few people tried the same thing before, and found it fallen of deaf ears. I hope you have more luck!


Trusted Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 81
November 4, 1999 7:56 pm  


The question is irrelevant. It's a leading question designed to allow the questioner the opportunity for rebuttal.

And since we already know the rebuttal - (e.g., "[...] in my opinion you can ONLY know IF people are lying IF you know their idenity. [...]") - there's no point in answering the question.

Any answer not consistent with the stated opinion would be unacceptable.

Why botha?


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