Archive through October 6, 1999 - Kosovo War

tommygunns — Wed, 06 Oct 1999 21:50:00 +0000

Phil,

From your posted NYT article:

THE NEW YORK TIMES
October 6, 1999

Independent Serb Journalists Defend Their Work

By STEVEN ERLANGER

a Western-sponsored conference .

Dragoljub Zarkovic, editor of the independent weekly Vreme "To accuse the Serb people and the independent media of the worst crime in history, and to draw an outrageous and defamatory line of equality between a regime, a nation and a media that has been waging a bloody battle against the authorities for 10 years," Zarkovic said, "then I felt I had no option but to walk out ."

The conference, sponsored by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe

Did the independent media fail to challenge war censorship sufficiently?

(Huh? Is this question being directed at CNN? NYT? who? - TG)

Should they have suspended publication instead? Did they support the government of President Slobodan Milosevic of
Yugoslavia or somehow collaborate with it?

Did they print enough about Kosovo and the atrocities committed by Serbian forces there, and are they printing enough now?

During the war the Serbian news media operated under strict censorship, and access to Kosovo was very restricted. In the patriotic atmosphere, fueled by the media, Serbs nearly universally
opposed the bombing, even if they also opposed Milosevic or denounced the expulsion of ethnic Albanians from Kosovo.

The meeting, at a resort in Montenegro -- the only remaining Yugoslav republic beside Serbia -- created enormous acrimony , with Serbian journalists complaining of moral arrogance, sloppiness and hypocrisy.

[Repeat that - MORAL ARROGANCE, HYPOCRISY.]

"The organizers wanted to waken our consciences and force us to question ourselves about our conduct and morality," said Veselin Simonovic, the editor of Blic, an independent tabloid, who returned to the discussion after his walkout.

At the same time, he said, "and this was put to us pretty directly, they made it clear we should be proclaimed as accomplices in crime, with ready-made slogans and cliches, and they tried to
force us to justify ourselves and say that we weren't quite as criminal as they said."

"Well," he said, "I wouldn't play along, and I felt sorry for my colleagues who did." The organizers had made a completely inadequate study of the coverage, he said, making few distinctions
between state and independent news media or among them.

Gerard Stoudmann, chief organizer of the onference, said the "aim was to raise concerns about their role and responsibility in
civic society."

"There was enormous defensiveness, which shows to what extent Serbian society has become autistic and paranoid," he said. MORAL ARROGANCE AND HYPOCRISY, INDEED!!

[In the brave new NAZI/NATO world, objecting to being vilified or falsely accussed is evidence of ones guilt and "shows to what extent has become autistic and paranoid". This guy must have studied at Ms. E's psychiatric institute]

But Simonovic, whose paper takes no money from international donors or governments, said the discussion had the character of a "trial" by Western sponsors. One of the organizers, Natasa
Kandic, was explicit. At one point she said, "They pay you and have the right to question your conduct during the war."

Ms. Kandic, the director of Belgrade's Humanitarian Law Center , which gets Western aid , traveled to Kosovo on her own during the war to investigate Serbian abuses.

In an interview, she said the Serbian news media had failed in their professional responsibilities during the war and were failing now to open the question of collective Serbian responsibility for
crimes in Kosovo.

tommygunns

tommygunns — Wed, 06 Oct 1999 21:23:00 +0000

Daniela,

Pardon me if I'm being obvious, but I'm sure you've noticed how "they" never seem to critique the content of whatever you post or write. Rather, they shift the subject to something else, or go off on a rant about something totally unrelated. Remember Phil's rant about Tanjung?

Now it's some nonesense about the Serb media's collective guilt (Emina should get in on that one, since voodoo is her thing). And, of course, neither of us EVER write anything original. We only "parrot" other peoples words according to one from the gallery!! And now our own Ms Bosnia once again forwards those "man-on-the-street" reports direct from Beograd. THE TRUTH ABOUT THE EVIL MILOSEVIC AND HIS SERB DUPES (roll the drums, enter trumpets here)

tommygunns

kissie — Wed, 06 Oct 1999 21:20:00 +0000

To: Emina

There all the same and like every present don't give a damn about the country there supposed to rule and the people there supposed to guide.
And Serbs! And the Balkans! Let's charge at Chief Red Nose, Miss Piggy, et. al.!! Banzai!!
Luv You, hate Kansas,
Kissie

To: PhilTR

A good article, man, but it does not fall under showing the efforts being made by the Serbian news media to come to terms with their role during the bombing. phil On the contrary,
it shows, that "independent media" raving and craving of the "West" is just another phony piece of cr.., fitting the moment.
P.S. What's independent media creature anyways? Is it on the Endangered Species list or already a roadkill on the Highway of Democracy courtesy Corrupt News Networks?

kissie — Wed, 06 Oct 1999 21:16:00 +0000

To: L'menexe

i can find anti-american shwa all over the place, nothin' new about that.
Is it all lies, dear L'menexe?

tommygunns — Wed, 06 Oct 1999 21:09:00 +0000

Daniela,

Had I known that agreeing with you would cause such consternation among the natives on this board, I'd have joined your wagon train a long time ago. Whooooopee! Geddy-up! Let's give the ignorant bastards the ride of their life!

:O) :O) :O) :O) :O) :O)

tommygunns

tommygunns — Wed, 06 Oct 1999 21:01:00 +0000

Emina,

You're Bosnian. Bosnia is no longer a part of FRY. What do you care about what's going on in Beograd?

Or is it the anti-Milosovic nature of the reports that gets you excited? A real turn-on, eh?

BTW - How come we never hear anything from you about current conditions in Bosnia? eh? multi-ethnic, multi-religious? How about the Bosnian free media? press, radio, tv?

As for your psychiatric studies - what does that get you besides a license to dispense drugs, use others as your human guinea pigs, and charge the poor suckers BIG $$S. Kind of a parasitic way of making a loving.

Psychology IS NOT a science. IT'S VOODOO.

tommygunns

emina — Wed, 06 Oct 1999 18:50:00 +0000

TG & DANIELA YOU REALLY WAMNT TO KNOW WHAT GOING ON IN BEOGRAD BETTER READ THIS!!!!!
NO NO NO NO NEWSPAPERARTICLES I DON'T NEED TO RETYPE THEM OR GO TO WEBSITES I GET THEM DELIVERED TO ME IN MY MAILBOX.
AGAIN NOT SOME 'SO CALLED' ALBANIAN STYLE LIE NO A SERBIAN FRIEND AGAINST SLOB 29.9.99 correct date!!!!!!OH AND ANOTHER THING IF YOU READ THIS PERSON WAS WITNESSING ALL OF IT. SO NO DOUBTS THERE

22:55 CET (GMT+2) - People in Balkanska and Narodnog fronta heavily beaten
-- People who were in Balkanska and Narodnog fronta street (downhill from
Srpskih vladara and Terazije street, uphill from railway station) were
beaten the most. One of the demonstrants told us that police was most
brutal there and chased the people to beat them. This is so alike 1996 and
1997 when the police used to ambush people when they were returning from
the rallies.
22:51 CET (GMT+2) - Democratic Party claims 60 injured -- Democratic Party
(DS) claims that sixty people have been beaten tonight in a brutal police
intervention. The real number will never be known because most (and I mean
most) of the injured refuse help of doctors because they are afriad of
being reported to the police and persecuted. This method was used before to
scare the people, but didn't work.
22:46 CET (GMT+2) - Professor Peric beaten -- This is an unfortunate
incident because I know professor Peric personally and he is a quiet man,
not the least violent. Obviously the police didn't care who they beat.
22:44 CET (GMT+2) - Another professor beaten -- Radio Index just
interviewed professor Milicevic who was beaten in the streets and he said
that another professor, Miljenko Peric, professor of Quantum chmistry on
Faculty of Physical chemistry of Belgrade University, was also beaten.
22:38 CET (GMT+2) - Our special report -- Our special report will be posted
very soon on our protest page!
22:37 CET (GMT+2) - Rally is over -- The rally is over, the next one will
be at 20:00 CET tomorrow.
22:36 CET (GMT+2) - Leaders lead the crowd -- Due to the specific route of
tonights walk the leaders of Alliance for Change were in the front, behind
the flags. They proved to be right. there are no news about any of them
being beating but I guess that police tried to avoid this.
22:34 CET (GMT+2) - Leaders speaking on Republic square -- The leaders of
Alliance for Change are speaking now on the Republic square. Milan St.
Protic is speaking now, it is not hard what is he speaking about, just like
Zoran Djindjic and Vuk Obradovic before him.
22:30 CET (GMT+2) - Police vehicles blocked streets -- Police vehicles
paralised the city. The streets are practically closed. There are more than
one hundred buses and many other vehicles parked in the city centre. This
can lead to only one thing.
22:26 CET (GMT+2) - Studio B coverage -- Television Studio B just
broadcasted a picture of a man with blooded head. They announced complete
report for later. If you can, watch Studio B, listen to Radio Index and
surf on FreeSerbia.
22:20 CET (GMT+2) - Tanks on the streets? -- We have unconfirmed
information from one of the demonstrants that behind the battle vehicles
were tanks. It seems that police was more than prepared to prevent the
protest walk, at ANY cost.
22:15 CET (GMT+2) - Rocks thrown at the protest walk -- FreeSerbia reports
that rocks were thrown at the protest walk in Kneza Milosa street from
rstate buildings: Trade Court on the corner of Masarikova and Kneza Milosa
street.
22:13 CET (GMT+2) - The rally started -- The rally on the Republic square
started just minutes ago. Zoran Djindjic is speaking.
22:12 CET (GMT+2) - Police from Kosovo used in intervention -- One person
told us that policemen from Kosovo participated in this brutal police
action.
22:11 CET (GMT+2) - All our people are well -- Both our reporter and
photograph are well.
22:10 CET (GMT+2) - Professor beaten -- Goran Milicevic, professor of
Belgrade University was beaten, as Radio Index reported, as well as one
unidentified girl. There are other unconfirmed information about numberous
beatings on the streets of Belgrade. This is chaos.
22:08 CET (GMT+2) - Republic square full -- Republic square is filled with
people who fled in front of the police.
22:06 CET (GMT+2) - Our reporter is well -- We just got news that one of
our reporters who reported from the scene is well.
22:05 CET (GMT+2) - Police infiltration -- Our reporter said that a man in
a leather jacket and his fourties pointed to the police where to strike at
the crowd.
22:04 CET (GMT+2) - People arrested in Knez Miloseva -- Police is arresting
everyone left in Knez Miloseva street. A cameraman got beaten and started
running, a man said that "they are arresting everyone left"
22:01 CET (GMT+2) - Police is taking over the control -- Police forces took
over the control of the city centre. Our reporter said that about 50 empty
police buses are in the area of Knez Miloseva and Nemanjina street. There
is not many regular police officers, most of them are wearing plain clothes
(wearing leather jackets, that is).
21:56 CET (GMT+2) - Four police cars moved through Pasterova -- Four polica
cars and one empty bus moved through Pasterova street.
21:55 CET (GMT+2) - People are moving to Republic square -- About a
thousand people are moving to republic square.
21:51 CET (GMT+2) - Radio Index heavily jammed -- Radio Index, only station
with a full coverage of tonights rally, is being heavily jammed.
21:46 CET (GMT+2) - People are scattering -- People are starting to scatter
in the streets after police intervention. Police in Nemanjina street beat
few people.
21:43 CET (GMT+2) - Police is chasing the people -- The people retreating
to the railway station were chased down Nemanjina street by the police, but
the police stopped now.
21:42 CET (GMT+2) - Police started intervention on Belgrade streets --
Police started to intervention to break up demonstrations
21:41 CET (GMT+2) - People are retreating up Knez Miloseva -- People in the
Knez Miloseva street are retreating towards Srpskih vladara street. The
police is pushing them. The crowd is split in two - one part is retreating
towards railway station and the other remained in Knez Miloseva and
retreating towards Srpskih vladara street.
21:39 CET (GMT+2) - Police intervention! -- Police intervention started.
They are pushing the crowd toward the main railway station. People are
running down Nemanjina street towards the station.
21:37 CET (GMT+2) - Police surrounding the crowd -- Police forces moved
down Nemanjina from Slavija square, surrounding the crowd. This is not
good.
21:33 CET (GMT+2) - New police forces -- Radio Index reported that they got
an unconfirmed information that another group of police is in Kralja
Milutina street near Slavija, behind the crowd. It seems that police is
cuuting off all the possible routes for escape.
21:31 CET (GMT+2) - Four battle vehicles -- Four police battle vehicles
armed with water guns are currently positioned in front of the people in
Knez Miloseva street.
21:29 CET (GMT+2) - Police reinforcments -- A group of heavily equiped
policemen is headed down Bircaninova street. This street is above the crowd
protesting aginst Milosevic. They are shouting "Slobo is Sadam (Husein)"
21:25 CET (GMT+2) - People sat in the street -- People in Knez Miloseva
street sat on the ground in front of the police forces.
21:24 CET (GMT+2) - Water cannons -- Police vehicles are equiped with water
cannons.
21:22 CET (GMT+2) - Stones on the demonstrants -- Someone threw stones at
the people protesting in Belgrade. We have special report that strong
police forces are headed to Kneza Milosa street from Swiss Embassy and
another group is on Terazije, behind the demonstrants, at the McDonald's
restaurant.
21:17 CET (GMT+2) - The situation is tense -- We have a very tense
situation in Knez Miloseva street. It is caused by the police who moved in
action before the whole of the protest walk turned to Nemanjina street.
away from the police. Now the people are pretty angry and awaiting to
resist the possible police intervention.
21:13 CET (GMT+2) - Police intervention? -- Police battle vehicles are
headed for the demonstrants! It seems that we are looking for riots in the
streets of Belgrade.
21:11 CET (GMT+2) - The protest walk stopped -- The head of protest walk
stopped shortly after the turn to Nemanjina street, leaving a part of the
walk in Knez Miloseva street. The police forces are still blocking the way.

21:06 CET (GMT+2) - Police blocked way of demonstrants -- Police forces
have blocked way of protest walk of Alliance for Change in Knez Miloseva
street, which leads to Dedinje. The route have just changed and the people
turned away moving to Slavija square, away from police

emina — Wed, 06 Oct 1999 18:19:00 +0000

l'em
Just stop reacting there both bags of.....Same old story same old song
Done it all seen it all and chocked on it :-)

Emina
Ps Don't get yourself worked up my friend

philtr — Wed, 06 Oct 1999 14:01:00 +0000

Speaking of other peoples articles, here is a rather good one showing the efforts being made by the Serbian news media to come to terms with their role during the bombing. phil

THE NEW YORK TIMES
October 6, 1999

Independent Serb Journalists Defend Their Work

By STEVEN ERLANGER

BELGRADE, Yugoslavia -- When a Montenegrin journalist suggested that the independent Serbian news media needed "de-Nazification" as much as the Serbian people, two respected Serbian editors had heard enough and stalked out of a Western-sponsored conference in disgust.

Three weeks later, Dragoljub Zarkovic, editor of the independent weekly Vreme, is still disgusted.

"To accuse the Serb people and the independent media of the worst crime in history, and to draw an outrageous and defamatory line of equality between a regime, a nation and a media that has been waging a bloody battle against the authorities for 10 years," Zarkovic said, "then I felt I had no option but to walk out."

The conference, sponsored by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, was intended to allow Serbian, Montenegrin and a few Albanian journalists to discuss their coverage of NATO's bombing war over Kosovo, its causes and its
aftermath.

Did the independent media fail to challenge war censorship sufficiently? Should they have suspended publication instead? Did they support the government of President Slobodan Milosevic of
Yugoslavia or somehow collaborate with it? Did they print enough about Kosovo and the atrocities committed by Serbian forces there, and are they printing enough now?

During the war the Serbian news media operated under strict censorship, and access to Kosovo was very restricted. In the patriotic atmosphere, fueled by the media, Serbs nearly universally
opposed the bombing, even if they also opposed Milosevic or denounced the expulsion of ethnic Albanians from Kosovo.

The meeting, at a resort in Montenegro -- the only remaining Yugoslav republic beside Serbia -- created enormous acrimony, with Serbian journalists complaining of moral arrogance, sloppiness and hypocrisy.

"The organizers wanted to waken our consciences and force us to question ourselves about our conduct and morality," said Veselin Simonovic, the editor of Blic, an independent tabloid, who returned to the discussion after his walkout.

At the same time, he said, "and this was put to us pretty directly, they made it clear we should be proclaimed as accomplices in crime, with ready-made slogans and cliches, and they tried to
force us to justify ourselves and say that we weren't quite as criminal as they said."

"Well," he said, "I wouldn't play along, and I felt sorry for my colleagues who did." The organizers had made a completely inadequate study of the coverage, he said, making few distinctions
between state and independent news media or among them.

Gerard Stoudmann, chief organizer of the onference, said the "aim was to raise concerns about their role and responsibility in
civic society."

"There was enormous defensiveness, which shows to what extent Serbian society has become autistic and paranoid," he said. "But the main goal was achieved, because real issues were addressed,
and it initiated a thinking process."

But Simonovic, whose paper takes no money from international donors or governments, said the discussion had the character of a "trial" by Western sponsors. One of the organizers, Natasa
Kandic, was explicit. At one point she said, "They pay you and have the right to question your conduct during the war."

Ms. Kandic, the director of Belgrade's Humanitarian Law Center, which gets Western aid, traveled to Kosovo on her own during the war to investigate Serbian abuses.

In an interview, she said the Serbian news media had failed in their professional responsibilities during the war and were failing now to open the question of collective Serbian responsibility for
crimes in Kosovo.

"I said we have an obligation to donors to do our jobs, and to fight for democracy in Serbia and not have that be empty words," she said.

Simonovic, acknowledging that some of the criticism was valid, countered that Kosovo remained "a taboo subject" in Serbia.

"This is an issue that must be opened for our own sake," he said, "not for international do-gooders, and the media will open it. But now would really bring the regime's wrath down on us, and I
believe the regime would stop us from publishing it."

That is one reason, he said when pressed, that his reporters have not dug very hard yet into the causes and tactics of the Serbian war in Kosovo -- answers that are to be had in Belgrade, not in
Kosovo, where it is no longer safe for Serbian journalists to work.

"Our priority now is to cover the regime and the opposition effort to bring it down or change it," he said.

But he and Zarkovic noted that under censorship the independent media did not indulge in the hysterical, jingoistic and aggressive language of the state media. Independent journalists drew a
distinction between popular, patriotic anger about NATO's bombing campaign and support for Milosevic, he said, and printed NATO statements and Western reports about events in Kosovo, including stories about mass graves and Western estimates of the
number of dead.

Both editors argued that given wide access to foreign radio and television stations and the Internet, few Serbs lacked basic information about what had happened in Kosovo, and they said it
was ridiculous to expect the independent media to support the bombing of their own country in wartime.

Instead, they and other Serbian journalists suggested that the West was less interested in their professional conduct than in finding scapegoats for NATO's failure to oust Milosevic or to protect Albanians in Kosovo, and its failure since then to control Albanian rage against Kosovo's Serbs.

"People who were on the receiving end of Western democracy grants are now to feel Western wrath," Simonovic said. "The West failed to create a multiethnic Kosovo, creating anti-American
feeling in Serbia instead. Westerners now need someone to blame: the civic sector, the Serbs, the press -- everyone, to them, is a collaborator. In this rosy picture, they're the only blameless
ones, their policies perfect."

American officials are scathing about how the Serbian news media allowed themselves to be censored during the war, said Zarkovicof the weekly Vreme, founded in 1990.

Ms. Kandic said refusing to publish was the proper position to take. That would be an abdication of responsibility, Zarkovic said, and the government threatened to close any paper that did not appear. "It would have been a terrible mistake to kill Vreme," he said.

For the Americans, the war against Milosevic continues. The Clinton administration has said it is creating a "ring around Serbia" of sponsored media, much of it radio or television, from
Bosnia and Montenegro, with more Serbian-language programs from Radio Free Europe and Voice of America.

It is helping the Vreme-like weekly magazine Reporter, published in Bosnia, to enter the Serbian market at a discount price, and just last week paid for two Serbian and four Montenegrin
journalists to travel to the United Nations to counter state media assertions that the foreign minister was making an impact there among nations unhappy with American hegemony. But they arrived the day he left.

"The only result that interests Americans is the fall of Milosevic," Zarkovic said. "The Americans see the media as a political weapon to bring Milosevic down. They don't seem to care very much
what will happen the day after Milosevic. I can understand: the Americans won't live here. But I will, and I'll be putting out a paper then."

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L'menexe — Wed, 06 Oct 1999 03:21:00 +0000

"stay tough, my friend"
in other words, continue your parroting of other
peoples' articles, and your posturing, and your
insults, to the exclusion of anything tangible
actually emitting from ==>> you. <<==
TG, if you stand w/her while she disses emina and
zoya then by all means...
you want 'chill'? have a slurpee