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(@godblessus)
New Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 1
November 1, 2001 3:39 am  

US should stop all kind of terrorist actions over the world. But one thing is clear.The terrorist groups from the third world countries who are mostly muslim get their weapons from Europian countries.If you want to get out from this dilemma you should stop giving weapons to terrorists. Terrorist groups in different countries have relations and bonds between themselves. If you keep on giving weapons to one group, you can't stop another. I'm from Turkey and my country fights against those murderers since 1970s. Radical islamic groups ,ethnic groups and antidemocratic communists are all in relation between themselves. They fight against richness, democracy and western ideology. Some Europian countries still keep on giving support even to radical islamic groups .I know one day some terrorists will attack to Europian countries as well. I hope Europian countries realize who is real friend and who is enemy , before it becomes too late and before some terrorists attack to them.


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(@anotheramerican1)
Eminent Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 41
November 1, 2001 1:48 pm  

To Facts and Fredelinque,
Facts I know we are of very similar minds on this particular issue so you can consider this as an addendum to your post but Fred I can see we are clearly in total disagreement so you can consider this a censure if you want.

Without the added logistics that facts has provided us, what do you think the Talian have left to attack with? How will their offensive work? If you have pored over a little of the history of Afghanistan you will see that they have done little in the way of attacking but have created miracles in defense of their rugged land.

But we digresse. If memory serves me, our stated aim in the land of the Pashtun(Pataan) was to rid them, and definitely us, of the Taliban and Al-Quaeda. We all know what the phrase collateral damage means, so how does this carpet bombing campaign speak to reducing this. How long can we go on doing this, while seeing red cross stores, old folks homes, and uninvoled villages destroyed before it looks like callous damage. You highlighted an attack by some lunatics in Pakistan on their cristians(with 16 deaths) but yet you don't recognise that under our auspices this is happenning daily, via bombs, in Kabul, Masar-Al-Sharif, etc..., only the numbers are greater. Ilona can probably tell you that the only crime that some of these people have committed is to love their land, the land of their ancestors(ancestry, probably, over a thousand years old), so much that they would suffer any regime before becoming a refugee. For in their land they are people and anywhere else they are just a broken down curiosity and another problematic mouth to feed.

Yea, I truly understand your anger. Awful things have been done. Insanely awful things. And we have all been affected in some way. I myself had countless friends and family members who were at ground zero. My concern now is not to avenge their injuries and loss but to try and prevent further losses and further insanely hateful actions. If you think police and/or military action alone will solve this then you better review the road to peace in Ireland or is it that these people don't resemble those in Ireland or Europe. In fact you don't have to go that far, you only have to look at the middle east. The Palestians, the Lebanese and the Syrians have been getting the beat down for the last fifty years and lo and behold the tranquility in that region. Those methods have failed miserably. It's time for a new paradigm.

So for all of the pragmatic, utilitarian folks, as well as those of us who want to see a positive outcome, we have got to think our way out of the situation we find ourselves in. By thinking, I don't mean that we just sit like the museum piece, with fist under chin, but think how each action can attain it's goal and how this action will affect perceptions and realities and if the possibility of negative perceptions are worth the action. No matter how much of a world leader we are now, remember our time is limited. We are approaching the time when we will be on the decline as a leader. I think we can hasten or retard this process depending on this situation. I can summarise this by saying this is chess, not checkers.




Facts, you sage, I could not agree with you more about feeding the battered, bruised and hungry of this region and then going on a goodwill spree. I fear that if we don't do as you have stated that this could very well prove to be the winter of our discontent. This coalition that we have assembled is of the most flimsy bonds and is threatening to disintergrate as we speak. If we don't do some things to help in keeping this motley Crue(pardon the spellin) together we would have won nothing and probably would have taken the proverbial two steps back after one forward.




Hey JC and Facts isn't it slightly curious that they are showing a mini-series about the Warsaw Ghetto Jewish Rebellion at this time? Does anyone remember this series being advertised in the summer or before 9-11. I guess it could be a case of topical programming?

Soon, AA.

__________________________________________________


Hey big daddy DOG,

I've began to love your comic relief in all of this. You slay me.(tee hee hee)

Choice is a lovely word, but isn't it what the hard right vehemently refuse to give to women all the time. It certainly wasn't what the Afghans had in a government. Oh yeah, you were there at the polling station collecting votes. I guess you advised them not to put their x in the box under the big T.

If you want to talk about taking responsibility for ones actions maybe you oughtta go down to the library of congress and peruse the records and read about some of what we've been up to in the last century. Oh, I forget, you're too busy working out and setting up "capitalistic" ventures.

Like I told ya before, I'm not worried about me and mine. We're alright. In fact I'll ya a spiffy little anecdote about one of my kids. I had to go down to school the other day because my six year son was in a fight. I guess you'd be proud but I was angry at him. When the teacher explained that he fought three other boys in the class and wupped them I was angered even more because he's the second biggest in the class. The twist to it, as explained by the teacher, was that it seemed to be over a girl(more anger). He was sent home. On the way home I angrily asked to him explain. His explanation was that the three boys were teasing the shortest, fattest and slightly deformed girl, who is in his class and is his friend, at the playground. He asked them to stop because she was crying but one of the boys pushed her, and obviously him, and so he sprang to her defence. All of them were sent home. While seeing some injustice in this, I also see the fact that he had to stand responsible for his actions because his school has a zero tolerance policy when it comes to violence. But on the other and My eyes were misted, my nose moistened, and my heart plumped with pride for my little hero. He lost his TV priviledges, of which he doesn't have many, but scored some serious ice cream benifits. What I found so great was the compassion that he exhibitted. So there you have my perversion.

Mein angst ridden freund I think you would best be served by sighting that teledyne on a dictionary and/or a good library cause I already got a lot pep in my step and I know the definitions of your out of context words.

In any case in you could run a copy of that Mein Kampf of yours I'd sure appreciate. I've been meaning to give it a read, but am too embarassed to buy one.

Your best buddy A.L.I.

P.S. I hear Nikon makes a pretty good sight too.


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(@johncauthen)
Eminent Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 25
November 1, 2001 2:02 pm  

Compassion has a very smart mind. It's hard to put down all those thoughts and cause them to make sense. He does it.

When I went back and read every word of of all his posts, including the posts in the archives, I saw that he said he was a man. Okay, I am very sorry I thought you were a girl. Maybe you are a girl. Is this a secret I am seeing through? Are you really a girl? Okay, I'll drop that unless you want to bring it up.

You believe in reincarnation, so what about the idea that you are born into a more heavenly place in this world, or a hellish place depending on your spirit? If you are rich and powerful you can do many things. If poor you cannot do much. God said, "The meek shall inherit the earth." What if God is right now putting all the meek people after they die in rich and powerful places in this world, to do good works? The idea is that the good people (after they are killed or die) will get all the advantages, and because of their work the world will get better. My grandfather was once appointed acting governor of South Carolina. I was born into a place where I could do a lot. But my father did not want to get ahead using his father's help, so he left South Carolina and turned his back on all the politcal power our family was born into, and went to work as a laborer in a textile mill.

I became a person born into wealth and priviledge living in hick towns in North Carolina. It wasn't until only a few years ago that I realized this was the source of all my problems. My father short-circuited my Karma, taking me out of the place where I could have been. After all of my efforts, nothing in my life could be made to work, although, I still have faith that it will.

If we were to create a world where no one is rich, maybe there would be no heaven, no place where God could bless people. GodBlessUS, not prejudiced by American thinking, said a very controversial and true thing. He said, "Radical Islamic groups fight against richness."

Radical Islamic groups, as well as some Fundamentalist Ultra Right Wing American groups, as well as Bolshevik and Communists groups think no one should have wealth.

Kings who are greedy for wealth invariably make their countries, their businesses, and their people richer. Bill Bennett is constantly saying too much wealth is the problem with America. That is almost like the Taliban.

I first thought bin Laden, who rejected his wealthy family and lived in caves was one of those crazies who fight against wealth like the Taliban do.

When I realized bin Laden was making the point that his people have the same feelings as everyone else, that they need the same money and comforts we need; and then the US press shut him up. Then, I said to myself, "Bin Laden may not be evil in his soul." He is not one of those crazies who hates wealth.

But we are keeping him from giving the message that poor Arabs and Palestinians have feelings too, and we are directing tons and tons of bombs to be dropped on a country that is facing winter and starvation.

And they may be delaying the war mainly because they want to bomb the poppy fields in the spring.

We are concerned that Afghani drugs are hurting the Iranian system. But hey! that's the reason God created drugs, so people who are oppressed can experience a better life and try to make it happen. In the 'sixties, we quickly went from drugs to a desire for a better world, and most of us never got hooked, nor do we even do drugs, anymore.

But now, why do we care about the Iranians? Why have they become our friends?

When I look at the World Trade Center towers fall, I see a building demolition from internal charges, not a collapse from fire. I saw a new clip on MSNBC. They cut away just as it began to fall, and went to a wide shot. Are they covering something up? Could there be other people who see how the fall looked more like a building being demolished from internal charges? GodBlessUS said, "I hope we realize who is real friend and who is enemy..."

Our enemies might be the crazy fundamentalists among us.


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(@fredledingue)
Honorable Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 719
November 1, 2001 2:54 pm  

Well, I agree that we have to help these poor poeple in Afghanistan and have some compasion 🙂 for them.

In the meanwhile waiting for spring to get in action would be a mistake:
Bin Laden will have time to organize a defense and to escape (if he is still there).
The Norther Alliance is impatient and won't wait for us.
The longer we wait to more inocent will die. Please finish it quickely!

And I don't know if the rangers who stay on the ground from 2 hours to 2 weeks before being lifted back to theyr warm quarters will suffer the winter more than the ill nutritioned taliban fighters.


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(@disgustedwoman)
New Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2
November 1, 2001 3:44 pm  

GodBlessUS has the clearest perspective yet.

Americans give too much military aid away and it ends up in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you are of the under 30 crowd...then you will at least remember that in the Gulf War,Iraq was supplied with leftover arms and aircraft from us from when they were fighting against Iran.

We never seem to know which shoe is on which foot in the world ; therefore, we should not be giving away or selling arms at all. PARTICULARLY to Israel. This once rag-tag nation no longer conjures up images of that classic movie "Exodus". The humble homelanders of post WWII have debased themselves into a terrorist regime equal to that of other more infamous groups.

How did this happen? Too easily with our $3 BILLION aid packages annually. I don't see Israel helping its neighbors grow and prosper so that the entire region becomes secure and strong.They are as gimme gimme gimme as we are I am ashamed to say. Our government has no need to supply a developed nation like Israel with arms. The MIC in this country had better think about scaling down its Christmas list. Our country can make money other ways and with a hell of a lot less cost in human misery. Sharon is an idiot. Rabin was their one chance to find peace and share land with Palestine. I am at a loss as to who is dumb or dumber....Sharon or Bush.

So because of Men Behaving Badly all over the world, from Bin Laden to Bush, the "average" Afghan, a poor population now made up of widowed women with small children and no rights are starving and dying.


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(@justhefacts)
Eminent Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 27
November 2, 2001 1:31 am  

To Fredlenique,
If we put troops in on the ground just in time for winter, nothing will be resolved quickly, except for the lives of many US troops. It would be poor military strategy. I don't care how much winter training our guys have (and it's not that much) the Afghanis don't need winter training, they are BORN to it. And they know every inch of their harsh terrain. When you are trying to move a column through snow and ice covered mountains it helps to know which pass is correct, which treacherous crevasse is where etc. etc. These roads and passes are thousands of years old, and the enemy can dance across them with their eyes closed. And believe me, no-one is going to win anything by airlifting troops back to home comforts and toasted marshmallows. No, let's fight the war during winter with aid, and then flush out our enemy in the spring.

Yes, AA, Israel is feeling the pressure ( note British prime minister Tony Blair's call for Palestinian state this week when in Syria). Aforementioned mini-series is surely thinly veiled attempt to keep the high regard afforded them by American public, well, high. WW2 is over and should never be forgotten but we CANNOT give Israel carte blanche anymore. It's time for some more pressure to be applied. I know it ain't easy when your neighbours all want to see you dead, but nevertheless UN resolutions must be enforced ....


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(@compassion)
Active Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 8
November 2, 2001 10:30 am  

To John Cauthen and all,
You are very kind to read the relevant archived messages. Thank you.

If you are rich and if you do a lot of good deeds (i.e. charitable deeds) with a sincere heart, you will be blessed by God. If you invest your money to make a violent holly wood movie, then you are unlikely to be blessed by God. The movie is shown all over the world and it will teach people to think violent. The WTC is a good example.

Most of the rich people have worries as well as restriction in their movement in life (bodyguards). They worry about their businesses, properties, etc. When they are going to die, they may worry about the future of their businesses as well as the distribution of his wealth. A poor and wise man lives a simple and contented life; he works to earn enough to fill his stomach for the day. He has no businesses or properties to worry about because he is mindful that one day he will die; it is a matter of time frame. Why should I worry? Worries are a form of sufferings. When he dies, do does not have anything to worry about, he leaves happily.


If you are powerful ( e.g. American leaders). They have used their power to bomb so many countries, killing their enemies as well as many innocent people. What have they achieved?
More hatred from their enemies (their younger generation may take revenge in future).

God said, "The meek shall inherit the earth."
At the end of the day, the wise people would not want to inherit the earth. Your home is just a temporary place in this life on earth. You can’t carry your home, your money and your power with you when you die. The earth is not a good place to live forever because it is full of sufferings (born, old, sick, die). Jesus did not stay long on earth; he came to earth to tell the Christians that heaven is the place to go. He is telling us; do not attach to the earth; follow the teachings in the Bible so that God can help us. Did the Bile ask you to become rich and powerful? At the end of my day on earth, I will have to give up all material things and emotional feelings in my soul. If you want to be sure that you can go to heaven, do not attach to any world pleasures, feelings and material things at those last moments of our life.

Let’s assume that all people on earth become Christians now.

What will happen?

Do you need money and power?

It is like living on earth as one family, like brothers and sisters. Besides food for the day, everyone will be reading the Bible, singing prayers, faithful and mindful to God at every moment. This is a form of moving towards the state of equality.


Live a wise and truly happy life.
Wise means simple, humble, contented, loving kindness, friendly, etc.

With a SINCERE and COMPASSION heart.
John_Love55@hotmail.com


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(@L'menexe)
Honorable Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 616
November 3, 2001 12:31 am  

"I know it aint easy when your neighbors all want
to see you dead", the man says...because he "knows
it aint easy".

Israel hasnt been the one blowing themselves up in
pizza parlors and discos.

It's bullshite to call them "terrorists".

I refer you to those alleged "holy warriors" who
think that the killing of innocents is their
ticket to a nonexistent "paradise", who teach
their children to look forward to an early death
and it is _they_ who put them directly in the path
of that early death.

All this religious shwa may comfort the writers
here, but it doesnt do much for the dead.

...and, like in all wars, ad infinitum,
IT'S ALL THE SAME TO THE WORMS.

{+999sk4tq}


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(@justhefacts)
Eminent Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 27
November 3, 2001 11:49 am  

to L'amenexe,
I agree that Israelis are not blowing up discos, market places, buses etc, but they still have to accept share of the blame for the current situation, as do we, as does the UN. If Israel went that extra mile and did what was necessary to secure agreement with Palestinians regarding their own State, well it would be painful for Israelis of course,but would benefit the whole world and would secure world opinion in Israel's favour. Also it would leave the collective asses of Hamas, Hezbollah etc flapping in the breeze. Those terrorists whose true ambition is destruction of State of Israel would be exposed, and public opinion would support their annihilation, nobody could hide behind aim of Palestinian State in order to mask their their true hatred .


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(@fredledingue)
Honorable Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 719
November 3, 2001 1:18 pm  

Justfact

If the best elite troops can't fight in winter, I don't know what kind of army we have.
Yes the afghans know theyr mountain passes better. They have an advantage.
But the cold is for everybody. And when you have a little experience of the mountains, it's nothing that terrible.

I also wonder if in winter infrared detection doesn't work better...

But the main reason I think we should attack during winter is that the Norther alliance won't stop fighting and they won't be airlifted for christmas.
We will have to help these poeple whatever the weather.
On an humanitarian basis, it would be nice if we could finish up Bin Laden and the taliban before poeple return working in the fields.


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 usa
(@usa)
Eminent Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 36
November 4, 2001 1:45 am  

Disgusted woman,

I want to know what makes you think that we are starving afgans. Many of them were already grief stricken by the loss of husbands and hunger long before we stepped in. If the taliban was for the their people don't you feel they wouldnt' use them as sheilds. There would not be so much distress if they would apparently share their abundance wealth with their people. BUT obviously they are not willing to do that because they had rather terriorize Americans and other people that stand for freedom and choice.


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(@disgustedwoman)
New Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2
November 4, 2001 7:45 am  

Hi U*S*A

Good point...but I was including more than just Bush and Bin Laden.

When I used the term "Men Behaving Badly"....I feel that in between Bin Laden is a whole range of those who have trampled on the Afghans. And you are right... that definitely would include the Taliban. Before them the Russians, and keep on trucking back in time and you will find women and children starving, because, even in time of draught or famine in those societies, they are held in little regard. They get the smallest share without a man to protect them. And not just in Afghanistan. Remember that the Butcher of the Balkans is going on trial soon.

And to L'amenex

So if a Palestinian uses crude weapons...they are terrorists. If the Israeli Army uses a tank, that is defending the homeland. What about the murderer of Rabin? What about the killings by non-Army Israelis? I don't think so Tim.

I am NOT anti Jewish. I have worked for Jewish people for years in the DC area, which you know has a huge Jewish community. Many of them find the Israeli mindset rather warped.


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(@justhefacts)
Eminent Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 27
November 4, 2001 9:51 am  

to fredlenique, you say "if best elite troops can't fight in winter what kind of army do we have ?" Well that is a good question and I guess we are going to find out. My prayers will be with them.


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(@johncauthen)
New Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 3
November 4, 2001 12:18 pm  

Kabul used to be an elegant, cultured city, according to MSNBC. MSNBC showed pictures of beautiful government buildings, grass, shade. On the side of a gently-sloping hill, there was a beautiful group of residential dwellings, all built with the same construction style and tastefully designed. They looked like resort condos in an upscale community in Florida.

Add the fact that some men lived with two, three, or four wives, and that they did drugs openly whenever they felt like it... remembering this was a cultered neighborhood, not a desperate slum... you have a picture of Utopia.

Learning about this it is no wonder to me why the West and the Superpowers wanted to invade Afghanistan. Afghanistan was going happily along, supporting some very idyllic places like Kabul by selling drugs to the world.

The West and Russia weren't only interested in taking Afghanistan over, they needed to destroy its culture. That's why it's been so hard, because destroying a country's culture, obliterating it, is hard to do...

Now, our problem biggest problem is that while we can conquer the Taliban in three days, if we did that the Northern Alliance and most of the Afghans left would just rebuild Afghanistan to its former glory. No, we want Afghanistan to become part of the "New World Order"; a place no one does drugs, men have one wife, men and women work hard all day long and don't make enough money to live a spiritual life, and there are a host of other modern annoyances.

No, we are not just trying to kick out the Taliban. And it seems we don't even care anymore if we catch bin Laden and bring him to justice, because we are mainly interested in destroying a country that used to be, in some places, amazingly idyllic. That's why we are prolonging the war.

If this is true bin Laden is correct to hate the West and want them to get out of his land. But one point about bin Laden. A Paris newspaper reported that a top CIA agent visited bin Laden in the hospital when bin Laden had a serious kidney problem. When Clinton tried to kill bin Laden and didn't tell anyone he was launching cruise missles on bin Laden's location, bin Laden left the area hours before the missles hit. Who told him, someone in the CIA?


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(@anotheramerican1)
Eminent Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 41
November 4, 2001 5:49 pm  

To L'Menexe,
In citing only the Arab/Palestinian "holy warriors" actions as proof of their wrongness and Israel's righteousness, you've managed to ignore the historical perspective of this conflict and are only helping to prolong the carnage in this incendiary region of the world.

How are you helping to do this? By not disseminating the whole truth. As far as I understand it, justice can only be served after the whole story is heard. You can serve all sorts of things in this way, but not justice.

Why is justice so important? Because, aside from the general historical lessons that have instructed us of the need for this commodity to be abundant in order for civil societies to function, it has been stated by the vast majority observers of this situation that great injustices have been taking place in this fracas, the greatest of which is the loss of a "nation", and until some semblance of justice starts to be meted out the bloodletting will not and cannot stop.

But this is not, as Disgustedwoman has stated so well, a Jewish issue, it's an Israeli issue. And it's barely this. The present government were elected by a slim majority and reached this, by what I feel, were some diabolical machinations. The death of Itzak Rabin was all too timely and was a horrendous precedent that was foretold by some extremely vile trashtalking by the Isreali hard right. The ensuing power shift has seen the political detritus of Zion ascendant and the ensuing intentional warmongering has torn the
peace process asunder. To put it plain Ariel Sharon is a blood a thirsty Arab hater and the minister who died was no better. These peoples only aim seem to be how they can provoke and promote war. They walk around calling Arab lice and vermin and stating that they should all be sent to Mecca. How much plainer would you like it presented?

What makes this situation even worse has been the fact that, after receiving the lion's share of our largesse, Mr. Sharon has told us and the world, in no uncertain terms, that he's gonna do what he damn well feels like doing. Which as we've learned from experience is bloodletting and/or promulgating warfare. If you haven't noticed, he was summoned to see Pres. G.W. Bush this week, but has once again given the US the virtual middle finger, by stating that he has pressing "security" concerns at home.

No one wants to see Jews die, they have certainly done enough of that in he recent past, but on the other hand shouldn't we be just as concerned about unwarranted Palestinian/Arab deaths or are you of the mind, like a few others on this board, that their deaths and sufferings are inconsequential. I trust that this view is not shared by many in the world and even if the majority of Americans feel this way, although I don't think this is so, it must be understood that there is always ugly, but preventable, outcomes when the associated actions of this sort of thinking manifest themselves upon those on the receiving end of it. I refer you to review all the struggles of those who view themselves as being unjustly dealt with. Yeah, you can even go back to the very beginnings of the U.S.A.



To DisgustedWoman,
As much as I see your point I would be remis if I didn't reply to your general criticism of male leadership.

It seems that you missed the fact that most of the women who have come to leadership post in the recent and past history, have done so by displaying all the testorone induced behavior that usually distinguish men from women. They have outdone men in their hawkishness in such a way as to make them more acceptable/palatable to male sensibilities. In other words they seem to have pandered to male power. I cannot forget the fervor that Margaret Thatcher had for the Falklands war. It was no surprise that during her tenure the IRA stepped up their campaigns. Her Idea of foreign policy was to get tough with everybody. But you don't to go too far to find a modern example. Have you noticed how hawkish Condileeza Rice is. She's one tough cookie and she needs to be to walk with that crowd and wield power power have validity in it.

All told, I am in great appreciation of your point of view and am looking forward to further post as I trust your opinion will be forthcoming.




Hey Facts,
I hear Mr. Sharon has filed for separation from Mr. Bush at the first circuit court of Jerusalem. His official complaint was that - "He's not the boss of me".




Hey John,
I'm not so sure they're trying to catch Bin Laden either. It would sure put a halt to the activities by taking away most, if not all, the public will for completing their stated mission.

Bye, AA.


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