Why don't all the tree-hugging, liberal, granola munching hippies take a fuckin! HIKE!!!!

To G.O.D.,
well you've certainly confirmed my suspicions. You are truly a delusional buffoon.
And as I sit here at my keyboard, shivering in fear, I can barely, make a response, but poor frightened me, I'll try to.

Thanks for debunking(I'll try to keep it to three syllables for fear of offending you) my wholly unproven arguments but I don't think discussing these things at a David Dukes testimonial really counts. Oh, sorry, it was on the Pat Buchanan campaign bus was it? In any case it don't look like even you believes it, massa. Why three post for one, without a factual response(thanks ILONA). There seems to be some deep misgivings. I think you could best learn from Justthefacts(a conservative who uses language and logic(our own George Will,if you will)).

Okay now that the gloves are off I can tell you I'm not in the least interested in your backbench national championship. I, like most americans, did some rasslin in junior and high school and didn't enjoy it. Don't get me wrong, I did quite well with it(pinned the NY state champ on occasion) but, like most, was weirded out by it. While I think highly of the effort and stamina needed for it, it just seems strange, for straight men, to put on tight and short clothes and grope each other for three minute spells. Didn't you ever feel funny having another guys sphincter that close to your mouth. Maybe it's just me? Being an ex-New Yorker and after working in the village, I can tell you I saw plenty of that without anybody winning a championship. My sports, while not so intimate, did include some brutality. Have you ever been in a fight and got hit so much you pissed blood? Have you ever been hit in your face so often you see two's and three's and gutted it out and won? Have you torn ligaments in your knee and your team needed you so much you played and blew out your knee? I did those things and more while you had your forearm up some guys crotch and were pushing your pelvis in his face.

But I understand what would irk you. It must have been awful there in my shadow. While I got the adoration of men and women of all stripes you labored nearly alone. While I toured the country performing in all manner of competition and venues you were stuck in some basement gym, sniffing anus(that's never fun). I had many a moment on these tours. Maybe some were with some people you have or had relations with. Maybe a wife? I would feel bad if I were you, because you sure don't seem like the wind beneath anybodies wing's.

As for my family situation and moral hierarchy(sorry to go over three massa, but thems your words), you would't worry if you were me. You see while doing all of the above, I also majored in Info Sys, and as such, the 90's were a banner time for me. I did quite well at the ofice and in the market. My family's well kept and well traveled and daddy's in semi-retirement. Consulting is the avocation and family is the vocation. I have two children who have been termed "gifted" by their respective teacher's. My 9 yr old is doing basic physics and my 6 yr old is doing 2 page papers. My wife is a CFO and quite beautiful and intelligent. I could have been better off but when the call came for everybody to hold and not sell, I watched as all those that said to hold sold(what were you doing secret ranger man?) and lost out on a small fortune. But, no matter, I think I feel better about myself. Oh yeah, 2 properties are pretty common nowadays.

But this was all expected as higher education started way back in my grandma's and grandpa's time. She and he were teachers, my mom, the underachiever, is a RN, my father is maritime pilot, my stepfather is a MD. That gungho brother is now a rather large airline pilot who, it is doubtful,could be hijacked with those methods we have learned about. My sister is an Ivy league trained lawyer. Are you getting the picture yet?

What were your family doing back then? From your post it seems they were busy watching "Birth Of A Nation" replays and blaming everything dark for their troubles. I suspect there a few klan meetings at your moral abyss and social hovel of a "home". I bet your daddy was the one with extra rope. I can see it now. As your family sat around the ole wood stove, roasin possum and recallin the great ole days of Joe McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover all while passin aroun da shine. I bet when you went to bed, your mom read excerpts from Mein Kampf. Oh, my heart doth swoon.

By the way I have a story to share. It seems my brother, whose intention it was to go special forces, scored more than high enough to do so, but was prevented so they could let in clowns like your self, who scored lower. How do I know this? It helps when you have a friend or 2 who went the West Point route. There was a great compromise. Trade somebody who would be a great soldier and diplomat for the sons of the Klan. There is no wonder that where we send our troops, we lose friends.

If I were you, I wouldn't make these, mindless threats about disfiguring anyone. The last time a threat came from a special forces member(a green beret(they were the special forces of choice at the time)), it was on a basketball court. He was bigger, 3 years older and fresh out of camp. But he forgot that handspeed is a deadly gift. He realised this after a bout of sudden unconsciousness(4- sorry massa). The busted lip and blackeye healed but he was never the same. But I suspect you were only making idle threats or you would have put your addresses in the post Mr. American Badass. I have never seeked fights and have avoided many, because of pointlessness, but you never know.

Ultimately I think the world has seen you for what you are - A mindless little brute. You probably shold own a penthouse in the Ozarks so we could see the better part of you and you could make achy breaky tunes about the mindless liberal left and we could laugh a hearty guffaw from an anthrax safe distance. Because it's guys like you who will surely bring this thing to an ugly end. So while you listen to the tunes of kid rock(I actually like his music) and read your author signed, first edition of mein kampf that momma left ya, and look up at your ceiling full of Pat Buchanan, Jesse Helms, Ollie North and David Dukes posters(I won't mention the village people) while you scan your bedroom for your genuine NAZI memorabilia think of me. But not in an intimate way.

Sincerely Another American

To ILONA,
That's tough stuff there. I'm duly impressed. You cut like through the morass. Glad I'm on your side. But I'm sorry I had to stoop a little. It was too inviting.

To Facts,
I'm Back. Glad to know your still valid and cogent analyses. You seem to get better all the time. I don'tt mond being on opposite sides with you. It is actually an honor.

I think you're right here though. The carpet bombing isn't helping our argument. The one that say's we want to bring them back to justice. It would have been better to say we were out to get them for what they did and we weren't looking for a trial. It would look more truthful.

Have you noticed the stirrings in Isreal. All of a sudden they're campaign funding irregularitties. didn't this happen with Netanyahu. Wasn't he made from the same political template as Sharon? I think a lot of people are doing some covert foriegn policy adjusting. This is the lynch(sorry about the choice of words) pin for all solutions.

AA

To G.O.D.
weren't those rangers that had that embarassing moment in Somalia? Oh, and wasn't Timmy McVeigh a ranger?

Whooooooa Rangers, lead the way.

To All,
as a disclaimer, I would like to say the ranger statement above was meant to show G.O.D. that the invincibility that he ascribed to the rangers was a bit much, as he was, but in attempting to do this, I feel, I have gone too far. Way too far. I apologize to all.

AA

To All,
America, welcome to the real world!!! It's now time to show the ragheads what you're made of. I only hope you don't screw it up like you did with Saddam. Please finish the job this time!!!!

welcome back AA. Thanks for the compliments, you had me blushing there. You are right of course I am a conservative, with a small "c". I suspect this means you and I will always be opposed but perhaps not diametrically. I have always believed that in any debate it is useful to ascertain common ground and then take it from there.
Yes I have noticed some stirrings in Israel. Let me say that up until 1982 I was a fully paid up supporter of the State of Israel, i.e. in my eyes they could do no wrong. I was young , and found some romance in the courage, unity and fighting ability displayed so soon after The Holocaust. I still do respect these qualities in the Israelis but what happened in Lebanon in 1982 woke me up. And now Sharon is back ! And hopefully feeling distinctly uncomfortable. He knows that Israel will be asked/ told to go the extra mile with the Palestinians. Without our military/financial/moral support Israel would find things very difficult and very different, and they know it. It must be very strange to be surrounded on all sides by those who would see you completely annihilated, but they are a far from stupid people and it must be clear to them what they will be expected to do. Whether a decisive agreement between Israelis and Palestinians will secure stability throughout Middle East, well, I fear not. Islamic states are not equipped to join the rest of the world in the 21st century. Their societies are drunk on religion and have consistently failed to take the secular democratic route. It is a rocky road for sure, and we have not got it right yet ourselves (see our last election !) but if they don't even try to institute social reform and leap forward a couple of centuries then they are doomed to more humiliation and blaming everyone else but themselves. I know our societies in the West have many faults, but social progress IS made, however slow and painful. We DO try and will continue to do so. Obviously I know that Turkey is secular and although they have a long way to go (as do we all ) they are on the right track.
So, AA, I await your opprobrium. What have I glossed over ? What have I conveniently forgotten ? Good to have you back.

GOD:
Or whatever the hell you call yourself. I can't
imagine anyone being so cruel and heartless.

i am currently waiting deployment and the fear is killing me but we will get through this wish me luck

to british soldier....
good luck
stay clear and focused
fear is natural
you will get through this, know that we stand firm behind you.

to British Soldier...From Oregon, I wish you luck, and pray for your fears to be overcome with great strength!! Please know, the love and prayers are with you always, I am proud of you!! My only son may soon be on his way...I am so scared, yet so PROUD!!!

to facts,
Where does the time go. Please do not make my tardiness, in response, into anything other than the fact that the school year has started. As to your revelations of your ebbing support for Israel, I can only say your balance is showing and you better pull down your small "c" around your exposed neutrality.

My dear sir, you have not only glossed over but you have revised history somewhat. The history of Israel really starts with Herzl and Zionism. It works it's way through the settlement of Palestine by people who's intention was the eventual annexation of that land for their homeland. The advent of WW1 and the need, by the British for the help of world Jewry led them to break promises they had made to the Arab world and give to this world something called the "Balfour Declaration". This is the genesis of the modern middle east problem because duplicity in international relations(especially land arrangements) ususally causes severe strains and sometimes war.

The horror and the genocide of WW2 was the final and supreme impetus that world Jewry needed to fully and passionately embrace the "balfour Declaration" backed Zionism. But as is the case of the vast majority of scarred peoples, they came with, as I see it, very deep problems of paranoia and hyper reactivity. Imagine, if you will, a nation suffering from post traumatic stress disorder(ptsd). They were clearly not in a frame of mind to make peace or think as lucidly as they would need to, to make such an ill foreseen arrangement work. The situation called for delicate handling and balance to all and as I see it that never happened. Most of the world on the US side of the equation were, I think we agree on this, pro zionism, due to the horrendous suffering of Jews during WW2. So the America watched them to get the better part of the arrangements, drive the British out and continue to break every League Of Nations, U.N. and US brokered land agreement and peace treaty that came their way without sanction while we punish/ed or call/ed for punishment for most, if not all, of the Arabic/muslim worlds infringements on the Isreali people. Balance in this context, as in most, also goes by the name of justice.

That your 100% and unflinching support should end with the Hebron refugee camps incident is fully understood, but there were so many more smaller incidents before it that it highlights our imbalance. Even when examining this incident and it's horrific magnitude, approximately 1000 women, children, and men dead(all killed by shooting or stabbing), in what was then one of the worlds worst mass killings, our reaction was diminutive and very thoroughly restrained compared to what we are now doing in response to our tragedy. We had a lot to right with the Arab/muslim world but we fell far below the mark. That Mr. A. Sharon is back could only add fuel(read drag racer fuel) to the fire that is Arab/muslim resentment and perceptions of injustice. Remember what it took for Mr. I. Rabin to even shake the hand Mr. Y. Arafat. Could you imagine how hard it must be for Arafat to sit across the table from an agent of Sharon even if it is Mr. Peres.

I was speaking to a non-jewish Polish friend yesterday and went on much the same as above until he accosted me about my becoming Islamic. I replied that I was in no way an Islamic supporter but rather an agent for justice. His thesis was that these conflicts would continue to happen around the world as this was human nature and sharing and getting along are not our strengths. He saw no strong connection with what has happened in Israel and what is going on now. My question to him was if a part, a large part, of Poland was annexed for the Jewish homeland what would have ensued. His eventual concession was that there would have been trouble, as it usually is when there is seperatist or cecessionist talks. Anything else is usually the exception.

I mention what I did in the above paragraph to help support my assertion that where ever the Jewish homeland had it's genesis(not trying to be biblical) there would likely have been trouble. It's the stuff of wars. So the Arab/muslim peoples are not very different from the rest of the world in this respect. This trouble and it's imbalanced handling has helped radicalize and give credence to radicalism amongst observers of the same ethno-religious background as the disenfranchised(perceived or real) and will continue to do so as long as balance cannot take hold. Which is at the root of the destabilization of the region. If we look at Europe up to WW2 we will see some analagous situations. A very stretched but albeit useful anology would be how in the treatment Germany after WW1 the stage was set for Hitler and WW2. The Germans had been warring for centuries and formed many empires. The Prussian being their last great one. They, in their most simplistic form, destroyed the most powerful ancient empire of Rome. They were thought to be incorrigible warriors and as such were disarmed and handled with great animosity after WW1 but after WW2 the approach was entirely different as are the results. Lo and behold the modern state of Germany. The people that were once the most feared in Europe and were thought to be intransigent are now one the great voices of reason. We could just have easily used Japan as an example but I think you get the drift. My reading of this is that given the right and appropiately fair treatment no people are beyond redemption.

As to the region and islamic states being forever unstable I again beseech you to look at early 20th century Europe and the destabilizing effects of war on the continent. How it must have looked, at the time, like war was to forever be part of Europe's world. If you don't want to reach so far back we have the modern example of the Balkans. Some say it is the hand of Islam again but they are ignoring the sometimes long and sometimes shorter(historically) conflicts between all the residents that is extant in this incendiary region. But I have no doubt that the conflict will be solved in this region as in the muslim world. In this I am definitely intransigent. I know we will only have to find the right approach and fairest solution for all. As you've stated our societies in the west are certainly not perfect but have come a long way and seem to be travelling towards ideals that are sound. But just think of the 60's and imagine us being here from there.

As for the secular route you hope for them I would say that don't let that be final word on their success as democracy or the lack there of has not seemed to hold back most of Asia. If you look at the worlds largest democracy, India, and contrast it with the non-democracy of Singapore and democracy doesn't seem that necessary for success. So too should secularism be deemed a non-factor in our analisys of the success of these states. I think it should be up to them to develop the form of governance that gives them great comfort and stability while providing a society that can be symbiotic within and without.

Well the wordy one has spoken and it's project time so until you digest this my friend.

AA

To British Soldier,

Your fear is only proof of your humanity. In stepping onto football fields fear is felt so you have every right in your fear.

Handle yourself with the greatest of care and we will all see you back on this board to discuss your view of what happened.

Godspeed AA.

To Another American,

Sorry, I didn't think anyone was answering me but Fredledinque, and he was disagreeing, so I went away.

An interesting discussion could be started on possible conspiracy theories, possibly more interesting than God telling everyone he can kick their butts.

Here is mine: yes, it would be an anti-Arab conspiracy, really an anti-radical-Arab conspiracy. Bin Laden's purpose was to make a point. If he worked alone, then he would continue to make his point by having more terrorists acts.

But if he was hired by some secret conspiracy, who uses American power structures like the CIA and the press without even the knowledge of most CIA or press people... Now the press will not broadcast any further messages from bin Laden: messages which Chris Matthews called powerful...

Bin Laden is obviously a charismatic leader. His name probably means The Laden. So let's pretend he is really carrying the suffering of all the poor Arab people on his back, and he has the ability make eloquent appeals to the power centers of the world that they should consider the poor. There is a joke about a man who believes in explaining things and doesn't believe in violent punishment, then he hits a student with a stick. "First you have to get their attention."

Okay, let's say bin Laden really wants to explain the plight of his people, so he gets our attention. And suppose someone who secretly controls the press, and uses the CIA and US military to achieve their goals has been helping him. But now they shut him off and don't let him speak. What does bin Laden do? He does nothing. He stops his terror attacks because they are only acomplishing the anti-radical-Arab goal of making him and his people look evil, rather than getting anyone's attention.

Right now, a few strange people are sending a few letters with anthrax. They might be terrorizing the press and congress; they are not terrorizing me. My life is going back to complete normal. This terrorist war started with a very big bang, but now the enemy almost seems to be saying, "I am not going to play anymore."

I haven't turned on the television yet today, and maybe I missed something today or something will happen in the near future; but the bad guys seemed to have lost interest, or maybe the bombing is really working.

To Another American: hey!!! just because I glossed over pre-WW2 Zionism with such profiency that I did not even mention it, doesn't mean I was revising history. History is something I revere, although interpretation is a 2-way street....... e.g. you are correct that the lessons learnt from Versailles enabled US and Allies to take a different and very successful approach with Germany, but that's not the whole story is it ? perhaps you glossed over (revised ?!) the fact that their country was split in two and they were just a checkpoint or two from being part of the Eastern Bloc. So yes they got with the program, unsurprisingly. This worry combined with genuine desire to atone/change has resulted in the success you speak of.
While you are right that Middle Eastern states should be left to decide the secular question, I find it impossible to see how they can proceed or survive in the 21st Century while still adhering to medieval Sha'ria. There may be Arab statesmen who would like to move on, but the fundamentalists wuld never accept this. Obviously you are thinking that most states do not govern in accordance with strict Islamic Law, but closer inspection shows that they all have to make many concessions to the aforementioned fundamentalists, who enjoy widespread popular support, and are getting stronger all the time. Prognosis is not good in current climate. I say again: drunk with religion.
As for the '60s, are you saying that we have been moving too slow from that interesting decade ? You would possibly be correct if you said that in some areas we have actually moved backwards.

To John Cauthen. A short while ago I read Osama's declaration of war on US and all infidels. Exhorting Muslems to slay all American Crusaders.Bin Laden and his kind would like to see nothning less than an Islamic flag flying over the White House. This does not seem like making a point about the poor to me
Can't really go for your conspiracy theory either. but it does no harm to ponder all sorts of avenues. Thank you.

To Facts,
my use of the word "revision" should probably have read edit, but since I used that word with our old verbal sadist(G.O.D.) friend it seemed strange to use it in your case. You, of course, should know I meant it in the lightest possible sense of the word. Now back to our latest episode of crossfire.

You have made a strong point in denoting the vast difference in context between pre and post-WW2 and I am remis in and stand guilty of strong editing on my part but it is only because I truly believe that for the change we see the most salient and efficacious aspect of the treatment given to The Axis powers was the respect they were afforded after a most horrific campaign by them. The subdivision of their geographical entity was surely a blow to the Germans and the reality that the other half of their entity was now part of the Soviet Empire should have been scary but did you forget that these were the people who could have, should have single handedly conquered western Europe. These are the people who created the most efficient, technically advanced army of the day. If not for the vanity, arrogance and probably psychosis of a one A. Hitler they might have pulled it off. Thank goodness for small mercies. They, as well everybody else, knew this. They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing don't they? With these facts in mind the Allied Powers knew that an ounce of prevention is worth a megaton of cure.

But what of Japan who's history was just as filled with military aggression? That they have received what is, until now, the ultimate reprisal would certainly be considered a deterrent but wouldn't the Allies understanding of the failures of Versaille have something to do with the success in Japan. The score was still Japan 100, Adversaries 1 or something like that. What would stop a country with it's phenomenal record from regrouping and trying a comeback? That the US is considered so highly in modern Japan bears testimony to what the right kind of relationship can yield.

The Arab states battle with fundamentalism is not a very uncommon political feature around the world. The republic of Ireland, until today, does not grant divorces. The church of England is officially recognized by the government as are a few churches on the continent. The worlds largest democracy India, is in a bout with hindu fundamentalism. We here in the good ole USA have had some spells where the the church, especially the right leaning aspects of it, have had way more influence than a lot of us are comfortable with and, I think, the spirit of the constitution allows for. In Europe and the US, we're pretty certain that the victory of secularism is either guaranteed or ensuing but as for India and other areas such as Africa north and south this battle is not so assured. I suspect that when it comes to fundamentalist Islam it's course will be dependent on the ongoing battle in Afghanistan and it's handling as well the ever present, ever cogent middle east situation. As I've stated in the previous post the radicalization process hinges on the perceptions of how justice or injustice is meted out to the clan of Islam. The more that justice is perceived to be done the less likelihood that and need for radicalism to grow.

I also think you forgot that there were a few bastions of secularism in this region. Lebanon for one was quite secular for some time. It made sense as they had what was then and perhaps is the largest proportional christian population of any middle eastern state. To use a well hackneyed phrase, they were the French Riviera of the Meditarrean. It seems it's not hard to access blame for it's fall to the situation in it's neighbor. Iraq has been, for some time, a secular state. It's one of the few arab states where you'll see women in any sort of attire. Their major religion at this time seems to be war but then they were very useful for checking Iranian agression and fundamentalism and if they were mentored well, I suspect, they could have been in the fold. There is the UAE where there is a city called Dubai. This is the shopping mecca(pardon the reference) of west Asia. Here you'll find many non-islamic peoples shopping living and working in a fairly non-secular setting. There quite a few other small Arabic states where the population is looking forward and Shari'a is not the major part of their plans. Did you forget that although the bombing of the USS Cole happened in Yemen that it was their police as well the FBI(that they allowed to enter) that cracked the case. They continue to crack down on the violent radicals in their society. It seems that there is hope in that part of the world. As it should be because as a great artist once said "none of them can stop the time".

Now what is needed is to help those that need the help to go forward by giving their radicals less foothold in their societies. This would be a great start to the next step in their development.

Until further notice AA.

These discussions you are having are what the war is really about. It is a clash between post WWII thinking and fundamentalist thinking. But there are a lot of dark features to this clash.

In the late 60's, my generation changed the way we thought. Our world view has been totally unacceptable to the previous generation.

But to find a generation who agreed with us, we didn't have to look far back in history. We found spiritual agreement with the generation of the 1920's. WWII was a blow that took away the ideals of the 1920's. WWII led to the ideals of the 50's generation.

This argument about how the world was divided up and who ruled it after WWII applies in an immediate way to today's struggle. It's not about past slights.

My father's generation believed my generation was irresponsible. That was reflected in the wages they paid us. The wealth of the lower classes decreased since 1970. We are paid less in low-level jobs now because our father's generation believe we are not responsible, and our ideas are screwy. Our ideals are much the same as people believed in the 1920's. Those people were also called immoral and irresponsible, nevermind how the greatest increase in wealth and invention in world history came during the 1920's, and again during the 1970's and 80's....when my generation were able to be successful and express our ideals with money and talent.

But the lower classes didn't benefit. A cheap car in 1970 cost $2,000, a cheap apartment rented for $85. Today a cheap car cost $15,000 and a cheap apartment cost $640. Prices have increased about eight times, while entry level salaries have only increased three times. You can't live in today's world if you simply have a job. The only way to get ahead today is if you sell out to the ideas that the WWII generation believe in.

This is the argument bin Laden had with his family, and the argument is valid. While we were young and vital, we caused the world to make some of the greatest advances in history, and so did the "irresponsible" generation of the 1920's. This is because we followed the natural laws of God, which we called Peace and Love. We were successful in creating wealth and alleviating misery, and it would be easy in another culture to call our greedy fathers infidels.

But our fathers believed we were irresponsible and they expressed their beliefs through the money they paid us, which turned out to be not enough to live on, unless we followed their ideals. This was happening in America; not to black men, but it was happening to formerly upper middle class white men with 70's ideals.

Now bin Laden has had the same argument with his rich parents that my generation had. His parents disowned him, as my father's generation disowned my generation. My father's generation don't want to let the "irresponsible radicals" run the world.

They will insanely try to accomplish this by destroying wealth and by destroying things like our ability to fly around in airplanes making deals that benefit people. In their world view, only the elite will get to fly. Those kinds of people who they call elite don't care about anyone but themselves.

There would not be any need for a war to stop all of us "irresponsible people" if we really were as irresponsible as they think we are. We couldn't affect anything if we really were irresponsible. What we have done, just like the 1920's generation, is to create a world full of wealth and pleasure.

Although fundamentalists hate the vulgar pleasures of the world, they are not really against God's pleasures, which might include using opium and things like having three wives, allowed in Afghanistan, which is one more reason the "responsible people" want to bomb the country into oblivion and take it over.

I have no ties to Afghanistan, I'm not sure if I know how to spell it, I just know where they are coming from, although the Taliban, who were installed by Pakistan are an evil joke.

When I talk about bin Laden wanting to help the poor I don't mean the poor as being those who are down on their luck. I mean he is trying to help the type of person this world has consistently rejected, even though that person is not a bad person. That person is like Gatsby in The Great Gatsby.

The fact that an American general was stopped from killing a major terrorist, known as "The Preditor", by a mysterious JAG much higher up is an indication those terrorists are really working for America (the truly evil secret side of America). And I say it was physically impossible for those airplanes to bring those buidlings down. They were actually brought down by internal charges placed by the people who really wanted to start the war, and take us back to the ideals of the WWII generation.

If you prove that statement, the fact that the buildings were brought down by internal charges, nevermind bin Laden, the ideals of peace and love and being faithful to God will win this war.