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Archive through August 16, 1999

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(@tommygunns)
Estimable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 117
Topic starter  

FYI - Approximately 6 million people around the world have died as a direct result of U.S. military
actions since the nation's beginning -- Howard Zinn, "The People's History of the United States".

Here's a list of the countries that the U.S. has bombed since the end of World War II:

China 1945-46
Korea 1950-53
China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Guatemala 1960
Congo 1964
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Grenada 1983
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1980s
Nicaragua 1980s
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991-99
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999


   
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(@emina)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 441
 

TO TOMMYGUNNS

Hi Im Zoja's sister i will try and take a look if i have more independant Bosnian sites in my bookmarks. Probably i should and if not its a phonecall away.
I let you know

Emina


   
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(@emina)
Reputable Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 441
 

TO TOMMYGUNNS

This is what i could find (quick look up) i will try to call tonight to see for more

http://rferl.org/bosnia-reprt/
http://www.corax.co.yu

the last one is not only bosnian, but still interesting.Hope it helps you

Emina


   
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(@tommygunns)
Estimable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 117
Topic starter  

Emina,

Thanks for the URLs. The first one is Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty which, along with all the other Radio Free's... around the world are definately NOT independent sources of information since they are US government sponsored and supported and known worldwide for propaganda and disinformation.

The second is the site of a Yugoslavian cartoonist. Interesting, but not what I was looking for.

What I'm interesting in are free, open, non-government, independent sites where Slovenes, Croatians, Bosnians, and Macedonians interact and discuss issues in forums and message boards similar to this one we are using.

Everywhere you read about how the former republics of socialist Yugoslavia had to break free from oppressive Serbia and become a part of the free democratic Europe. Supposedly, they are now the free and democratic republics of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzagovina, and Macedonia. Where are the web sites of these "free" people? I only see government controlled sites full of "bs" propaganda, especially sites like Sarjevo Online, BosNet, KosovaPress, etc.

The only thing I can see is that these new mini-states have merely switched dictators. Instead of a Serb/Yugo dictator, they now have there own homegrown dictators - Izbetbegovic, Tudjman, and the thugs that rule Macedonia and Montenegro - and now Thaci in Kosovo.

I think all the Balkan nations are deluded in blaming Serbia for their problems. They ought to be directing their fury at those who have been stiring up the problems from the very beginning - IMF, NATO, Germany, Britain, USA. These are the ones that destroyed the only functioning, prosperous, multi-ethnic, multi-religious, socialist nation in Europe - and it is primarily for the last item (socialist) that they intended this destruction - that and the route to Tenghiz.

I'm afraid that ALL the Balkan peoples have a very bleak future, at best they will become like the rest of the western world with a small core of middle class consumers dazzled by advertising, uninformed by corporate dominated media, and fed a lot of false hopes, but surrounded by well hidden poverty and ignorance. You can imagine the worst scenario, just look at the nations of Latin America - freedom and democracy and western capitalism have been long established in Colombia and it is a hell hole of a country.

To get back on track - I'd still like to hear what real people INSIDE Bosnia have to say in an open, independent forum. Anyone who can direct me to such a site will be gratefully appreciated.

tommygunns


   
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(@emina)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 441
 

TOOMMYGUNS

Let me tell you one thing I am a Bosnian, and even for me its hard to get as much independant news as possible.
Fine im in another country now, but i said id try to call and look into it for you, but by mouth batshing me you won't get any far.

Second if you would have taken the time to read what this cartoonist has to say and for which magazines he works you would notice there are as indepant as you can get them right now meaning the magazines mentioned. Another thing you think that there are many Bosnian, Croats, etc having internet access.Now way yeah Craots more then Bosnians that all i can tell you.

And last, but not least you think there is no danger in drawing cartoons of Milosevic between quiotines???????

So next time ask before you asume that im an weird overboard American who doesn't have her stuff straight

Emina


   
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(@emina)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 441
 

TOMMYGUNNS

This piece is written by a Serbian person .I had it by email.I let you read it cause you wanted to know about our freedom of press.He has excelant piece on this sent to me.Its not the whole piece only what is relevant. It also gives you a good look in my country(ex yugoslavia's) situation to your question.It might give you some insight before you judge on someone

The trouble with Serbia (and, so some extent, with other ex-Yu republics) is that
we've all understood the old Chinese curse of "living in interesting times", and our
own curse of "wish you had, and then had not". We all had it, and lost it. We know
the measure of what we have lost, and we know how many years it took to build. It's
not only the bridges and factories - it's the whole state infrastructure which took
years to build (and not only physically, but socially as well), which was devastated
by the regime over the last decade. In just the first three years of the
Croatian/Bosnian war, about 300,000 of young and educated people have left the
country, for either not wanting to be sent into a pointless war against brothers, or
for economical reasons. The institutions were degraded or made defunct one by one -
the good state TV we had (I've watched several German channels in 77 and 90 - ours
was far better) is turned into the worst known outlet of hatred and propaganda,
Goebels style; the Academy of Science and Art is turned into a third rate political
club, the University is denied independence and turned into a party-run enterprise,
with commisar-type managers; free press is less free than the state press was 20
years ago; the Parliament is turned into a powerless circus and a source of fun and
scandals - it has no authority; the courts have lost the little independence they
had, the judges which didn't comply were gradually replaced with obedient ones; any
private business initiative is suppressed by either being racketed by "security
staff", or by being overtaxed, or by being frequently visited by various inspections;
the laws don't matter, because they're contradictory, and anyone can be found guilty
if necessary.

Emina


   
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(@tommygunns)
Estimable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 117
Topic starter  

Emina,

My sincere apologies. I did get carried away with my own thoughts in that last post, however I had no intention of offending you or anyone else. I do apologize if I did. This is such a complex issue and your part of the world is such a complex area that it boggles the mind sometimes trying to make sense of it all.

I think what bothers me is that I read and hear so many of the Yugoslav people blaming each other and continuing to tear each other apart, and at the same time I know that it is my own country that has been stirring up trouble there for a long time, just it does in so many parts of the world. Perhaps I'm impatient for the rest of the world (and my fellow americans)to unite in some way and stop this rampaging beast before it's too late.

Thank you very much for sharing the piece from the Serbian person. He or she captures and expresses very well what I've thought and felt about the tragic change that has occurred in Yugoslavia. It reminds me of the feeling I got from reading the daily entries in "A Belgrade Diary" during the bombing - the trajedy of a thriving society being ripped apart by forces beyond it's control. I have downloaded hundreds of articles, opinions, essays, reports into a massive reading file in an attempt to educate myself about the Balkans and then to educate other Americans about the crimes of our country. My country too is sliding deeper and deeper into a dark abyss and it is sad and frightening to look around me and know that so many of the American people are unaware of what is going on, like they all live in a dream and don't know there's a nightmare waiting just around the corner.

Well, I've gone off rambling again, so I think I'll end this here because it's getting very late.

Once again, I apologize for any offense. And I will certainly take the time and look closely at the Dani magazine site and the cartoons.

peace,
tommygunns


   
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(@L'menexe)
Honorable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 616
 

tommygunns:
as bad as it frequently seems, we havent even BEGUN the slide into that dark abyss...this has been standard operational procedure, that which we grew up with...but in keeping with our media-fueled contemporary and cultural sensibilities, "we're" just meaner, coarser, in-your-face about it...

the majority of americans will have no say. the decent americans will have no say.
it's our descendants who'll experience the full measure of the dark abyss, not us..upon the table being set for them... this has barely begun to get as ugly as it shall...


   
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(@emina)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 441
 

TO TOMMYGUNS.
Apologies accepted.
Iam off doimg my medical training and schooling for a second job so i wont be here mn much
Talk to you later

Emina


   
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(@tommygunns)
Estimable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 117
Topic starter  

L'menexe,

I couldn't be more in agreement with your post re: the abyss. Whereas Ermina understood my earlier post to be "judgemental" and thereby took offense, my apology to her (after re-reading it) sounds somewhat naive. In reality, I'm neither quick to judge, nor naive. In fact, I tend to be on the cautious side when posting (even emailing to friends) because the nature of the medium lends itself to quick, off-the-top-of-the-head statements that are then easily misinterpreted. Next thing you know your getting flamed -- Yikes!! ". . .what did I say?"

Ermina: Good luck with your medical training. I hope when you return you can tell me more about Bosnia. It is difficult to find reliable first-hand information, so I hope you won't mind if I "pick your brain" (gross American expression, isn't it????) smiley, smiley.

Although I have a degree in Fine Arts, my major area of study at University was International Relations. Since March I've become "obssessed" with the Balkan situation, primarily because it somehow slipped passed my "radar" and caught me completely off guard. I guess I was asleep for a while. Anyway, I've been spending 8-10 hours a day on the net researching (downloading, printing, reading) everything I can get my hands on.

And now I notice it's nearly 4:00AM and I'm nodding off on the keyboard!! I got on the net late tonight because I had dinner with a friend who's visiting from Bahrein and we spent the evening discussing FRY/Kosovo/KLA/BH/USPolicy /Oil/Mid-East, etc., etc. - actually, it was mostly me showing off my newly acquired knowledge!!!! ) he, he.

Got to sleep, ciao

tommygunns


   
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 zoja
(@zoja)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 369
 

To Tommyguns

It IS hard to find independant sources dealing with the balkans. Two very valuable site are these.

http://www.dds.nl~pressnow
Site of an organisation based in Holland, called Press Now. They are actively supporting, and therefore have access to independant media all over the Balikans.

http://www.decani.yunet.com
Site run by Orthodox Christian 'cybermonk', Fr. Sava, from the dioces of Raska and Prizren, who sheltered Albanians in their monastary during the bombing, and Serbians now. Fr. Sava and his fellow 'conspirators' are working their butts off to keep as independent as possible, having run, and still running a lot of risk in doing so.

Something you have to learn dealing with Balkan sources who call themselves independent, but look like they are not, is read between the lines. There is no such fhing as real free press in Yugoslavia, so you just have to deal with what you get. Don't dismiss anything on first glance, like you did with the cartoonist. The man is risking his neck with this work.

For the rest stop looking for independent chat or message boards. IF you find one at all it will be one in Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, or whatever local language. For the rest the few people who do have internet access in the region often go to existing sites to vent their opinion, like my sister Emina is doing here.

The most ex Yugoslavs on the Net are either the ones who fled the country, or the ones who did everything humanly possible to hang on to their internet connection, which numbers are low.

Maybe this will help you a bit 🙂

See ya!

Zoja


   
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(@emina)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 441
 

TOMMYGUNS

I see my sis got you some sites great:-)

My medical training is not because im in university cause im a shrink amongst 4 other degrees already.Its merely catching up these things you have to do 1-2 a year 🙂

Its good that you also discuss whatever you find with your friends, cause exchanging infotrmation can give you a better insight.

If im here atleast this month it will be in the weekends, so you your allowed to empty my brain and i will tell you as much as i know.

Bye for now

Emina


   
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(@philtr)
Estimable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 110
 

Tommyguns:

In my brief 54 years on this earth, I have never, ever encountered that rarest of species, the "independent writer" or its cousins the "independent reader, speaker and listener."

We all bring our cultural, social and political baggage to the "hoe-down" dazzling one and all with marvelous feats of selective listening, reading, remembering and speechifying. Blessed is the individual that can acknowledge or is even aware of a bias let alone can,in some meaningful way, compensate for it. And even if one were to honestly try to compensate for a bias, whose point of reference will determine the kind of compensatory effort to be undertaken? And who should be appointed to let us know if we succeed?

The best any of us can do, in my view, is to quietly listen when we're being blessed with constructive criticism (and even not so constructive) or find ourselves with the opportunity to be able to hear another point of view, knowing all along that when we resume our own utterances it will be as if time stood still, and knowledge and understanding has somehow once again eluded us as so much water through our fingers. All points of view are honest and hard won particularly amongst the more dogmatically fanatical.

So enjoy the fray. It is the essence of living. Without it we're intellectually dead or dying, forever bound to be in 'the choir' singing to the faithful, eventually to be sterilized and driven mad by the echo of our own voices. We can learn as much about ourselves as we can about those with whom we disagree when we engage them in debate.

phil


   
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 zoja
(@zoja)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 369
 

To Phil.

Independent in this case meant independent from government supervision/censorship or funding

For the rest, I share your viewpoint. The best you can do is get to know the views from all corners, and you get a relatively complete picture in which you yourself can form your point of view.

Zoja


   
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(@philtr)
Estimable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 110
 

Zoja:

You caught me. ;o) I was going for a "sweeping generalization," hoping I could get away with it.

The "government" unfortunately, seems to get its fingers into everything. No aspect of our lives remains untouched. One might say with seeming innocence "no government ties or influence here!" But how can anyone verify that statement? Simply, the assertion can't be verified in any objective way.

We're stuck with analyzing content and context asking ourselves, "would a government act is such a way that would "seem" to be against its self interest?" Yes, of course governments would and have, if and when there is a larger goal to be achieved.

Would a government sponsor a paper or similar organ or use itself in such a way that would, on its face, seem to be at odds with that government's self interest? The answer, it would seem, has to be yes. Governments through the ages have encouraged the singing of and have sung many a "lullabies" to the masses. What better way to disarm than to acknowledge the grievance or at least seem to acknowledge it. Better yet, make it seem that something is being done about that grievance.

The fascinating aspect about this strategy is that the entity (including any sub governmental entities) being used (the dupe?) does not even have to be aware (and ideally is not aware) of its crucial role in the charade. The government merely permits the dupe to act naturally. The dupe does what it feels it must. At least until it starts to get out of hand. Then, POW!!! "Order" is restored.

So, is there independent speech, free from government supervision/sponsorship? The cynic in me says, "no way!" Not on this earth or in this time continuum. We have to play with the meanings of words (like supervision and sponsorship) to escape this reality. But see if this realization keeps me from "arguing the knots off a stump."

Now some might point out that all power flows from the people and that the power of a cruel dictator with a pitch fork in his belly is indeed fleeting; all would be dictators should beware of this potential outcome. Well, one can't dance if one can't get close enough to the object of one's affection to pursue the point. So we throw rocks at windows.

phil


   
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