Zoja:

Thanks. I think we both understood what we were talking about.

Your suggestions led me to the Serbian Cafe and some lively and interesting discussions.

Regards to your sister and friends.

tommygunns

==============================================

PHIL: EARTH TO PHIL. . . URGENT MESSAGE.

DO NOT EAT THE PUDDING...BIG BOPPER IS NOT ARRIVING AS SCHEDULED...REPEAT...DO NOT EAT THE PUDDING!

(e.g, Cut the crap!)

tommygunns

Tommyguns:

Didn't realize your were a closet "true believer." ?:-| Scheesh!!

In all seriousness though, trying to find "uncensored information and open forums" is akin to seeking the 'holy grail.' I spot check the various forums and news groups from time to time, looking for cool rational discussion that more or less is in line with your view. Right!!!! I'm still looking.

Passion seems to be the main problem followed closely by cynical, manipulative humor. The unmoderated forums go through cycles of 'flame wars' and atrophy. The moderated ones tend to be more even keeled but one gets the sense of being shepherded with certain topics and lines of discussion taboo. I'm certain you've been there.

But, what the heck, don't let me discourage you in your quest. I admire your optimism. It's refreshing and who knows, you just might get lucky which of course give all reason to hope.

I belong to an e-mail group formed around the time of the first O.J. Simpson trial that was an off-shoot of the Court TV Simpson discussion groups (talk about flame wars!) We're for the most part teachers, counselors, lawyers, judges and administrators from all parts of the US. Even we have had our moments exchanging as many as 1500 e-mails over a three day period many of them very heated and quite sincere. For the most part we were pretty objective and rational in our postings making great efforts to get our facts straight even siting sources, but on occasion, we did "show our butts" letting fly with torrents of invectives when frustration got the better of us.

My point here is that we took great pains to be accurate and objective, but didn't always succeed on either point.

In your Friday, July 30, 1999 - 03:43 am post you said, "How's this for Miss Piggy????? She even fancies herself a bit of a Madonna. I recall a reporter's description of her at a press conference - wearing a very tight, short skirt that rose to displayed for all the males ample amounts of fleshy thigh.

It was bad enough for us (USA) to have Clinton as president, now we have a hooker for secretary of state??????? "

From that tone I got the impression that your support for Clinton and his team is somewhat tepid.

In your Saturday, July 31, 1999 - 07:11 am post you said: "FYI - Approximately 6 million people around the world have died as a direct result of U.S. military actions since the nation's beginning -- Howard Zinn, "The People's History of the United States".",

Is this a form of apology or were you just trying to be tough on Uncle Sam for being the world's heavy?

Funny, I just can't seem to see you as someone looking for "uncensored information and open forums", but rather as one trying to find the "choir" and the "faithful" to whom you can sing and be sung to, for ratification. Of coursre I could be wrong.

phil

phil, suh
i got no beef w/mr gunns that i know of
but i like the way you write.
we who thought of ourselves as "the good guys" when things were hot n' nasty here, not that long ago,(and we, um, "won") might perhaps have benefitted from your tone.
were you a voyeur here back then?
but, seriously, do ANY of these chat discussions stay level/back and forth/"reasonable", especially upon a subject as volatile as this?
i dunno, i'm askin' you.

L'menexe:

I've looked in from time to time since the beginning of the hostilities. I get myself into too much trouble when I participate.

No discussion group I've ever come across remained calm and dispassionate, particularly when the participants care passionately about the subject matter.

But our medium is only the written word. We don't have to resort to the "hair trigger" and over react. We can step back, consider our responses... and thennnn "give it to 'em wiff both barrels." ;o)

There are no easy answers in this conflict. But it is clear that the Kosovars are going to have to step forward and take the "high road" and stop with the retaliation against the Serbs. If the ethnic Albanians fail to "stay their hand" and the carnage continues they'll be seen as no better than their tormentors and in fact may be seen as having "deserved what they got."

It seems clear that neither Hashim Thaqi, Rexhep Selimi nor Agim Ceku are wise to the ways of western politics. If they can't establish discipline (initially over themselves), suscribe to public accountability, and get their members to cool-it, they're going to quickly loose the support of the world community and never realize their dream of an independent Kosova with its own security force.

I don't see Rugova as a serious player now (his most endeaing trait became his geratest weakness) so either Thaqi, Selimi or Ceku are going to have to fill the void. The important question is which of the three has the credentials to lead. Thaqi seems to be the most qualified, but can he influence Selimi and Ceku without resorting to violence. I'm having my doubts right about now.

phil

Phil,

I've no intention of getting into a pissing match with you over endless petty points. Your game is transparent. You described it best yourself:

>>We can step back, consider our responses...and
>>thennnn "give it to 'em wiff both barrels. ;o)

Your words above and the "reasonable" and "objective" tone of your posts makes a question imperative -- viscious stalker in the vicinity?

Perhaps you work for State. . . same slick reasonable tone that slides so easily off the tongue of Rubin, et. al.

>>Thaqi seems to be the most qualified, but can he
>>influence Selimi and Ceku without resorting to
>>violence. I'm having my doubts right about now.

Really? Just now having doubts? Gee whiz, gosh these "freedom fighters" would resort to violence? Maybe if they just got together and smoked a little of that heroin they'd mellow out so they can "take the high road" in this "conflict that has no easy answers".

Phil, you are a comedian. Do you have visions of smilies while you slide the knife in?

tommygunns

Tommy'g

" I've no intention of getting into a pissing match with you over endless petty points. "

You say you don't want to get into a "pissing match" and lo and behold I look down and there is a puddle of piss next to my shoe and my "member's" never been outa my pants!

What "petty points" are you alluding to? You have me at a loss with that one. Are you saying the Kosovo situation is petty?

" Your game is transparent. You described it best yourself:…

>>We can step back, consider our responses...and
>>thennnn "give it to 'em wiff both barrels. ;o)

…Your words above and the "reasonable" and "objective" tone of your posts makes a question imperative -- viscious stalker in the vicinity? "

I see not only do you not have a sense of humor, you're a "cherry picker" too. ;o) Interesting selection of and spin you put on my choice of words, which were, if you'll notice, a bit ambiguous. I was merely suggesting (humorously) that when responding be reflective, considered, direct and very forceful. Nothing about being nasty or mean spirited. But do make your point, with a sense of humor if possible.

"vixcious stalker"

Give me a friggin break already. You sound paranoid. A conspiracy theorist? Survivalist? Fundamentalist? I wonder?

" Perhaps you work for State. . . "

Perhaps??? Friggin fascinating!

" same slick reasonable tone that slides so easily off the tongue of Rubin, et. al. "

Since when is being able to express oneself a bad thing? Of course if one is a poor listener or has an agenda that is at odds with the speaker, it's easy to understand the above sentiment.


>>Thaqi seems to be the most qualified, but can he
>>influence Selimi and Ceku without resorting to
>>violence. I'm having my doubts right about now.

" "Really? Just now having doubts? Gee whiz, gosh these "freedom fighters" would resort to violence? Maybe if they just got together and smoked a little of that heroin they'd mellow out so they can "take the high road" in this "conflict that has no easy answers". " "

My, my. Aren’t we the sarcastic one. Tell me. Do you believe the ethnic Albanians got what they deserved when the Serb military machine graciously and deferentially invited them out of Kosovo? Do you believe the whole thing was just media manipulation on the part of NATO who were in cahoots with the KLA to make the Serbs look bad?

You denigrate the Kosovo leadership by suggesting that they should "smoke…heroin" Are you implying that all KLA smoke heroin? I wonder, do you paint the whole lot (of Albanians) with that brush?

Tommy'g, perhaps you think Robinson, Falwell or Dobson could go to Kosovo and straighten that situation out. Tell me true now.

phil

Tommy'g:

" Thaqi seems to be the most qualified, but can he influence Selimi and Ceku without resorting to violence. "

The only potential of violence I was referring to here was the possibility that one or more of these men could die at the hands of one or more of the others. That would be a tragedy for they are among the brightest and most able of the KLA. They have proven leadership skills and Kosova needs them all. I just hope they all live long enough to develop the "wisdom" to make "good" leaders.

phil

Published in Washington, D.C. 5am -- August 13, 1999 www.washtimes.com





NATO forces try to protect
elderly from 'granny killers'

By Philip Smucker
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

LUZANE, Yugoslavia
The NATO soldiers shook their heads in dismay as flies
swarmed above the cow dung and human blood where
the killers had tossed the Serbian grandmother's corpse into the
hay.
The troops had stepped up patrols around 78-year-old
Godsa Draza's farmhouse in recent weeks in order to stave off
ethnic Albanian "granny killers" who have been turning their
anger against elderly Serbian women of late.
NATO troops had paid "surprise visits" as often as twice a
day on "Granny Draza," as they called her, in order to keep
any would-be assailants guessing. Usually she fixed them thick,
Turkish coffee and joked with them about the NATO bombing
campaign.
Capt. Nick Perry, leader of the British patrol that found her
body, said the killers bashed in Mrs. Draza's front gate early
this week, entered her home and shot her twice through the
chest. They then hid the corpse in a pile of hay next to the barn.
"My soldiers are all extremely upset about this," said Capt.
Perry, who inspected the scene Tuesday. "Grandmother Draza
was one of the kindest ladies we met and she had tried to
protect the homes of her Albanian neighbors during the war."
NATO troops, particularly in the British sector, have
stepped up patrols around the homes of elderly Serbian
women in a mission they call the "Granny Beat." Several
high-profile killings, however, including the death of Mrs.
Draza, have cast a pall over their efforts.
NATO officials say the attacks on elderly women are part
of a campaign of intimidation and murder by ethnic Albanian
extremists who are bent on revenge for last spring's Serbian
onslaught that is estimated to have killed more than 10,000
people.
Those tensions led Thursday to a car chase and shootout
between British troops and ethnic Albanians in a Serbian area
just north of the capital, Pristina, the Associated Press
reported. Seven men were detained, two of whom had been
wounded by British fire.
In Pristina, the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish Regiment
visits elderly women nightly, spurred by events like the widely
reported killing last week of an 80-year-old grandmother who
was discovered drowned in her bathtub. Residents had earlier
reported two suspicious-looking Albanian men loitering near
the woman's apartment, demanding to be let in.
Most Serbian residents in Pristina and the surrounding areas
report regular visits from Albanian men -- many with shoulder
patches stitched to their shirts bearing the black, two-headed
eagle symbol characteristic of the Kosovo Liberation Army.
The men often arrive just after NATO patrols have passed by.
When British troops visited Nadezda Svetkovic, whom they
call "Granny Smith," she told them Albanian teen-agers on
bicycles had been throwing stones at her windows earlier that
day.
Mrs. Svetkovic, 65, said she had also been visited by an
Albanian stranger who had identified himself as a KLA
member and laid claim to her house. A note had been placed
on her door, reading in Albanian: "Don't Touch, KLA," and
signed "Lulzim Osmani from Drenica."
It was only the latest attempt by ethnic Albanians to
intimidate Mrs. Svetkovic into leaving her home. A few days
earlier a group of men had barged into her home and robbed
her, telling her to leave within three hours or be killed.
"When we found her, all her windows had been bashed in
and Granny Smith was cringing in a corner," said Capt. Sean
Lundy. "I worked in Northern Ireland but I've never quite seen
anything like this cycle of revenge. What we can do is try to
stop the grannies from being expelled."
NATO soldiers have now erected a metal screen in front of
Mrs. Svetkovic's home to prevent stones from smashing
through her windows. But, she told the troops, "Whenever you
guys leave they come back."
The Rev. Brian Walton, the Irish Regiment's chaplain, said:
"These old ladies bear malice toward no one but they have
become innocent victims of an ethnic backlash. They are
imprisoned in their homes, afraid to come out."
That same evening, while delivering food to other elderly
women, the NATO troops received a report that another
grandmother had been thrown out of her home. By the time the
soldiers arrived, her neighbors were already carrying off her
belongings.
In Luzane, NATO soldiers said they had twice taken Mrs.
Draza to visit her two sons living in nearby Kosovo Polje, one
of the few "Serbian ghettos" remaining in Kosovo. Both times,
troops remained in her home to protect her belongings.
Late on Tuesday, Mrs. Draza's son Mila drove up to her
home with a truck to pack the last of the family belongings. He
said he planned to give the family cow to an Albanian for
safekeeping.
The British troops said the neighbors had still offered no
clues as to who might have committed the killing.
U.N. officials estimate that 130,000 Serbs have abandoned
their homes out of fear of revenge attacks since the end of the
NATO air strikes and the deployment of NATO's
peacekeeping troops in Kosovo.

Phil,

What I object to is your interjection of yourself into a rather insignificant and brief exchange between myself, Ermina, and Zoja wherein I had requested their help in locating web sites where I might find Bosnian points of view from other than the "official" statements posted at sites such as Sarajevo Online, Bosnet, and BosLink.

You immediately proceeded to "lecture" me and others in a very self-righteous and condescending manner. The tone of your posts reeks of the same smugness and condescension we were all subjected to by the talking heads of State, NATO, et. al.

So here, for the record, is my "subjective" view. I make no pretense of being objective, I have a "passionate" point of view, and am not interested in intellectual quibbling.

1. Kosova is one battle in a much bigger war, the Balkan segment beginning in the late 80s, and had nothing to do with humanitarian concerns. The SFRY was targeted for destruction because 1) it was an independent socialist entity in Europe that 2) presented an obstacle to the projection of western power into and eventual control of Caspian OIL. See the World Socialist Website at www.wsws.org for an excellent analysis.

2. First the IMF began the destabilization of the SFRY economy in the mid 80s, followed by German (and later US) intelligence ops egging on Croat and Slovene secessionists and stirring up ethinic rivalries. With a foothold in a weakened SFRY, the west turned toward Bosnia, stoking the flames of ethnic rivalries there.

3. The Serbs were early on designated the "bad guys" and were subjected to continuous demonization. Serbia, the geographic heartland of Yugoslavia, had to be isolated before the final coup de grace. Think of a bullfight, the toreadors weakening and tiring the bull so the Matador can swoop in with the final cut.

4. The Albanians of Kosovo have had a free hand for decades, virtually running the province and continuous harrassment of the non-Albanian population. Their ranks swelled with illegal immigrants from Albania (itself a basket case).

5. The KLA was/is the core of heroin trafficking in Europe. French, German, Czech jails are filled with Albanian drug smugglers. Despite the saville row suits and salon haircut, Thaci is still a gangster and thug who has already "eliminated" other rivals within the KLA and wouldn't hesitate getting rid off Selimi, etc. if they get in the way of his self-assumed power as "Prime Minister".

6. We can argue about Thaci, Rugova, Izetbegovic, Trujman, the Ustasha, Sbrenica, Racak, Milosevic, ad infinitum, but what the entire Balkans situation boils down to is A) Oil, B) capital and markets, C) the overthrow of existing international law, D) the usurpation of power by a western elite towards the establishment of global dominance - yep, a New World Order - that does not bode well for PEOPLE anywhere. Conspiracy? Yes! From the perspective of those in the upper realms of world power and influence events DO NOT happen accidentally; there are no significant surprises and what happens on the ground is of little concern.

7. My posting of the list of US interventions was to point out that the current US involvement Kosovo is not new or unusual. US intervention is simply business as usual...it is business that calls the shots, and it is the nature of the system to expand, subdue, and control. Getting rid of the government, changing administrations, etc., has zip effect on the system.

Enough! There are a million points that could be argued about (what I meant by "petty"), but they are insignificant in the big picture. The Russians never were very good at empire-building to begin with, so Reagan's characterization of them as the "Evil Empire" was a joke -- lurking in the background was "Evil Empire II" which has finally shown its face to the world in Kosovo.

Funny you should lump me with Fallwell, Dobson, et. al.????? Try Trotsky.

Humor? You want humor? How's this:

Piss, piss, piss. In the (paraphrased) words of my favorite cartoon bitch, Julliette Jones, "Now that you've said your little piece -- Get out!..." I've got a choir to gather and the faithful to preach to.

[:>)

tommygunns

Phil,

Specifically, your last post:

>>Thaqi seems to be the most qualified,

for what? Is the New York "familia" looking for a replacement for Gotti?

>>but can he influence Selimi and Ceku without resorting to violence.

"...it is the way of the Woodabi".

>>The only potential of violence I was referring >>to here was the possibility that one or more of >>these men could die at the hands of one or more >>of the others.

Like other former KLA leaders who got in Thaci's way?

>>That would be a tragedy for they are among the >>brightest and most able of the KLA. They have >>proven leadership skills and Kosova needs them >>all.

Like I said, Phil, you ARE a comedian!!

>>I just hope they all live long enough to develop >>the "wisdom" to make "good" leaders.

Hmmmmm. Like Pol Pot? Oh, sorry. You said "good" leaders. I was thinking "effective". Reminds me of a favorite Dylan line - "Don't follow leaders, and watch your parking meters".

OK, I'll let you in on it! From a TV documentary about the males of the Woodabi tribe in Africa - to incessant western queries about why they do this, that, and the other they would simply respond with a BIG smile, "It is the way of the Woodabi".

Uh-oh! Guess I tipped my hand with all these references to cartoons, songs, tv shows.

Time to get outta here. The faithful await!

cheers,

tommygunns

gee i dunno guys...
maybe we need a return of the dreaded h'niq or something so that people ostensibly not on different "sides" would quit firing away at each other.
me, i've never been as informed as you two are/might be on this subject and havent claimed as much either.
and i wouldnt have to be, to anticipate the sort of horrorshow "payback" bullsh*t as daniela describes.
and if you go back and read the archives, i mustnt have been the only one in anticipation.
'sfunny, i thought my last couple exchanges w/"kissie" were not unpositive. now daniela, reviled not too long ago here, has scored a couple bullseyes too. maybe i wouldnt want to know their in-depth opinions on this affair or in general., but i'll give 'em their "due" credit.
actually i regretted my "abyss" posting and there was no solace in being agreed with.
the world pays zero notice as my/our anticipations come to pass. people do the same f*ckin sh*t over and over and over again. we are indeed "condemned to repeat it". for that matter, am i bound to be increasingly more ashamed to have been "born in the usa" (to quote a song disgustingly co-opted and perverted by folks who didnt bother to actually LISTEN to it)?
in the long run i'm better off with "cartoons and songs" as mr gunns put it.
c'mon h'niq, rat-bastard that you are, show your face anew and give us all a target!

tommy'g, your last two posts to me were indeed refreshing and a wonderful insight to who and what you are. Good luck in you quest. The 'true believers' are out there for sure. I'm sure they'll find you and your point of view reassuring.

Regarding your plaintif complaint regarding my "interjection," if you don't want someone to acknowledg your presence, quietness is a marvelous remedy. Coming into a fourm such as this preclueds privacy especially when you post inflamatory messages. It was those posts I was responding to, not your conversation with Ermina and Zoja, but I though you knew that. Silly me. Please forgive spelling.

With respect to your seven points:

" 1. Kosova is one battle in a much bigger war, the Balkan segment beginning in the late 80s, and had nothing to do with humanitarian concerns. The SFRY was targeted for destruction because 1) it was an independent socialist entity in Europe that 2) presented an obstacle to the projection of western power into and eventual control of Caspian OIL. See the World Socialist Website at www.wsws.org for an excellent analysis. "

And so the Yougosovian regeim gave us vivid immages of living skeletons hanging onto wire fences back in the early '90s to help their cause.

" 2. First the IMF began the destabilization of the SFRY economy in the mid 80s, followed by German (and later US) intelligence ops egging on Croat and Slovene secessionists and stirring up ethinic rivalries. With a foothold in a weakened SFRY, the west turned toward Bosnia, stoking the flames of ethnic rivalries there. "

Exactly how was the economy weakened? I find this point of view fascinating. As far as Bosnia, see above.

" 3. The Serbs were early on designated the "bad guys" and were subjected to continuous demonization. Serbia, the geographic heartland of Yugoslavia, had to be isolated before the final coup de grace. Think of a bullfight, the toreadors weakening and tiring the bull so the Matador can swoop in with the final cut. "

I'd say the "good guys" had a lot of help from the "bad guys" in that labeling process. They (the bad uns) were caught doing what they were want to do.

" 4. The Albanians of Kosovo have had a free hand for decades, virtually running the province and continuous harrassment of the non-Albanian population. Their ranks swelled with illegal immigrants from Albania (itself a basket case). "

They had a legal right to run the province. That right was taken away in the early '90s. "illegal emmigrants"??? Give a friggin break already.

" 5. The KLA was/is the core of heroin trafficking in Europe. French, German, Czech jails are filled with Albanian drug smugglers. Despite the saville row suits and salon haircut, Thaci is still a gangster and thug who has already "eliminated" other rivals within the KLA and wouldn't hesitate getting rid off Selimi, etc. if they get in the way of his self-assumed power as
"Prime Minister". "

There is no objective evidence that the KLA is at the core of any durg smuggling. Nor is there any believable evidence that Thaqi is a gangster or has personally or indirectly eliminated anyone.


" 6. We can argue about Thaci, Rugova, Izetbegovic, Trujman, the Ustasha, Sbrenica, Racak, Milosevic, ad infinitum, but what the entire Balkans situation boils down to is A) Oil, B) capital and markets, C) the overthrow of existing international law, D) the usurpation of power by a western elite towards the establishment of global dominance - yep, a New World Order - that does not bode well for PEOPLE anywhere. Conspiracy? Yes! From the perspective of
those in the upper realms of world power and influence events DO NOT happen accidentally; there are no significant surprises and what happens on the ground is of little concern. "

A) I think you mean mining as in Trepcr, C) Your pont? c) in other words, rational change, D) your slobbering and have a glazed look in you eyes. That is one of the tiredest arguments ever put forward. It didn't make sense when it was first put forward and it still dosen't today. But the faithful still cling to it to help them get through the day.

" 7. My posting of the list of US interventions was to point out that the current US involvement Kosovo is not new or unusual. US intervention is simply business as usual...it is business that calls the shots, and it is the nature of the
system to expand, subdue, and control. Getting rid of the government, changing administrations, etc., has zip effect on the system. "

I take it your not a Capatalist? ;o) I heard taht the only difference between capatalists and socialists is that capatialists work for their riches, socialist use laws.

" Enough! There are a million points that could be argued about (what I meant by "petty"), but they are insignificant in the big picture. The Russians never were very good at empire-building to begin with, so Reagan's characterization of them as the "Evil Empire" was a joke -- lurking in the background was "Evil Empire II" which has finally shown its face to the world in Kosovo. "

Another tired saw. The US did not act alone. Seventeen other countries with their own 'deals' had to be brought on board. Clark and Jackon's task was much like hearding cats. Of course obvious details like that do no affect the thinking of "true believers."

" Funny you should lump me with Fallwell, Dobson, et. al.????? Try Trotsky. "

I think not. Your much more suited for Fallwall et. al.

" I've got a choir to gather and the faithful to preach to. "

The ring of truth can be heard indeed.

phil

==koff==

(sigh)

(shrug)

(ducking)

L'menexe, you're too funny. Thanks for the laugh. Really, it's not all that bad though. Just ideas, being discussed by people who can agree to disagree. Its not very stimulating to have a discussion with another believer. Progress and understanding would be the first casualties.

Your so right that many including yourself have predicted that the Kosovo situation would become an unmitigated disaster, which it is quickly becoming. NATO and UNMIK are largely to blame for it seems the they were unprepared to support the cesation of hostilities (one of the many outcomes of trying to heard cats.) UNMIK seems to be ineffective. Complaining that the UN member countries have failed to follow through in their pormises does not help their image.

The KLA is failing miserably to show restraint and leadership, and therefore reassure NATO and the UNMIK, the reasons now beginning to become obvious and so may never achieve the leadership status they seek. Opportunities lost.

phil

PHIL AND TOMMYGUNNS.

I don't mind you quoting me, but do me a favour and write my name right. EMINA .As you both can see there is no R there.

Anyway due to lack of time i can't contribute to really to the discussution going on right now, be back after my training to discuss things further IF needed

Emina