"Clark rejected Serbian accusations that chaos had prevailed in Kosovo since the arrival of KFOR."

No, why should that statement surprise anyone? It's a perfect example of the blatant lies we've been hearing from day 1.

"He said there were indications that Serbs were deliberately undermining security in the province and cited as an example that one of the three Serbs killed by Russian KFOR soldiers on Sept. 6 was carrying a Serbian Interior Ministry identity card."

This one is simply ludicrous!! Now we're expected to believe that a member of MUP, with all the accusations of atrocities against them, is going to infiltrate back into Kosovo and continue to carry a MUP identity card!!!

Jeeeeez! NATO troops taking census counts and MUP soldiers carrying identity cards in hostile territory. It makes for perfect disinformation - "we smart, they dumb". I can just hear both Jane and the Chimp ROTFL!

Keep shifting the blame is also a great tactic of propagandists (from denial of chaos to the chaos is caused by those dumb infiltrators). Just like every article about Serb, Roma, or other non-Albanian murders has to include a reminder of alleged Serb atrocities as though that justifies and excuses the current ethnic cleansing of Kosovo.

tommygunns

hi kissie!
actually ==I== missed you. no foolin'.
was very pleased that a situation wherein i was
(perhaps pointlessly) rude became articulate by
the time we last crossed paths.
i've said before my participation here had more to
do with my philosophical inclinations than the
real knowledge frequently on display here since
the "h'niq wars" of a couple months ago.
i come back regularly to read, and i try to become
a little more familiar with the specifics, but
damn, i'd just get in the way of these more
ed-ja-ma-cated types holding forth nowadays.
but ==this is true== among the things passing
through my brain as i'd wished i could get more
than 90 mins sleep last night was to drop a line
here saying, in effect, that i missed you.
well, y'know, as much as one might under these
circumstances. (grin)
>>larry b./L'menexe

PS to Phil,

Re:>> Capatilism is top dog only because it works best for most. <<

If you want to see the results of your wonderous capitalism, I suggest you leave your ivory tower and take a trip to Latin America. Just about any country will do, but I highly recommend a visit to Colombia. I'm not talking about FARC or the cocaine business either. Colombia, hailed as one of the oldest democracies in the America's with a completely capitalist economy is now, and has been for decades, mired in the most mind-boggling poverty, misery, and despair imaginable. You will find the most horrendous slums imaginable precisely in those cities with significant US corporate investment - Cali and Barranquilla. The squalor of Barranquilla can only be compared with the vision that Calcutta used to bring to people's mind.

I know this because I have lived in both Cali and Barranquilla and I've been to just about every corner of the country and seen the unbelieveable human misery.

And were is Nicaragua today, now that the evil Sandinistas and their evil "socialist" programs to spend the national wealth to feed, house, and educate the people. Nicaragua is once again mired in the stench of poverty and misery thanks to the US.

Don't stop there. Keep going south. Your dazzling capitalism and democracy can be seen first hand in Panama City, Quito, Lima, La Paz, Santiago, Rio, Asuncion. It's the same wherever you go in Latin America despite decades of Peace Corps, Alliance for Progress, USAID, and a whole garbage bag of programs that never were intended to alleviate the misery of Latin America. Really solving the problems that plague people all over the world IS NOT PROFITABLE, that is why capitalism ISN'T and WILL NEVER BE successful.

Yea, I know you said "it works best for most". And so royalty in feudal Europe thought as well.

tommygunns

T'gunn, the points raised by Harris to support his position and not really dealt with by North are:

1) …the Serb regime has long planned the "ethnic cleansing" of the Kosovar Albanians that is currently underway on an accelerated schedule…

2) …in the long term there is no way other than military force to save them and to put a permanent halt to Serb aggression…

3) …if the Serb government persists in the face of aerial bombardment of strictly military targets, those attacks should and no doubt will be broadened to include economic targets and civilian infrastructure as well…

4) Milosevic began his rise to power by embracing and legitimizing the strong strain of mystical, fanatical nationalism that had been suppressed during the decades of Tito's rule… …followed by a number of far-reaching acts…

These acts included:
5) …stripping the Kosovo region of the official autonomy status…

6) …large scale elimination of government resources for Albanian schools and cultural institutions…

7) …mass firing of Albanians from both
government and non-government positions…

8) …suppression by violence of Albanian attempts to maintain theircultural autonomy and identity.

9) Milosevic appropriated for the Serb Republic the votes in the council of the Yugoslav Federation that had up to then been wielded by Kosovo and Vojvodina autonomous regions. This gave Serbia disproportionate power…

10) Karadzic, the Bosnian Serb leader and infamous war criminal, was Milosevic's proxy in Bosnia, as were the notorious Arkan and other militia leaders responsible for much of the butchery.

11) …during the intervening decade the Albanian community had conducted a campaign of political struggle , using the tools of passive resistance…

12) …was still going on in the face of vicious and unrelenting Serb oppression when, in 1997, the UCK (KLA) emerged in Kosovo…

13) The response of the Serbian police and military was brutal and indiscriminate, and by March of 1998 had become an outright campaign of "ethnic cleansing…

14) These forces had resumed the campaign of violence against the Albanians, as always under the guise of fighting the UCK "terrorists," and as always involving the deliberate and methodical execution of men of military age, the random slaughter of women, children and the elderly, and the systematic destruction of homes and villages.

phil

Ad hominem attacks ignored.

"You continually throw out this kind of … and when challenged either shift the question to something else or try to wiggle away from it by claiming some kind of disinterested neutrality (your "facilitator" role)."

Your characterization not mine.

" Neither your post nor Daniela or I ever mentioned Tanjung or any of the myriad of interventionist organizations in the service of NATO."

I never said you or Daniela mentioned them. They're merely examples of ogranizations that put out what I believe are good reports. Tanjug does not.

" Kouchner claims these numbers are the result of a "A new survey by NATO-led troops in Kosovo ....", not OSCE, UNMIK, NATO, ICG, or any other self-serving NGOs"

I believe if you go back and look at my post, I was alluding to report reliability.

" What's being questioned is Kouchner's reliability and credibility (and honesty!) and the absurd notion that in the midst of the chaos in Kosovo where NATO troops have little control of anything they somehow were able to "survey" the population and determine the numbers of various ethnic groups."

There is no objective verifiable evidence that impugns Kouchner's reliability or credibility. Statistical sampling is a well developed art form that can be used by most anyone under appropriate supervision.

phil